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Identifying a submachine gun
- Thread starter Kotharu.khasis
- Start date
Tidewater_Kid
New member
Post in the NFA section and you might get more help.
Looks like a homemade version of a Sten. Just a guess.
Welcome to the forum.
TK
Looks like a homemade version of a Sten. Just a guess.
Welcome to the forum.
TK
It looks to be a one-off home-made submachinegun or more exactly, a machine pistol.
I am going to assume you and the gun are not in the U.S., where it might be illegal to possess since the markings do not conform to BATFE requirements and making such a weapon without a license has been illegal since 1986. The general concept seems to be similar to a STEN, but the dual triggers (Semi and Full Auto?) and overall appearance indicate that there was some "inspiration" from the Beretta MP 38.
Jim
I am going to assume you and the gun are not in the U.S., where it might be illegal to possess since the markings do not conform to BATFE requirements and making such a weapon without a license has been illegal since 1986. The general concept seems to be similar to a STEN, but the dual triggers (Semi and Full Auto?) and overall appearance indicate that there was some "inspiration" from the Beretta MP 38.
Jim
Kotharu.khasis
Inactive
I haven't handled this gun, so I can't say much of the quality of workmanship.
The gun is in the Middle-East, and the owner tells me it traces to Egyptian troops from WW-II era, but that's as far as he or anyone else knows.
Thanks all for the help!
The gun is in the Middle-East, and the owner tells me it traces to Egyptian troops from WW-II era, but that's as far as he or anyone else knows.
Thanks all for the help!
Mike Irwin
Staff
It's got a Beretta look about it, but there are significant differences.
I'm also seeing a lot of indications that this was hand made, not a factory production gun.
The numeral stamps appear to be hand applied.
The rivets holding the magazine well in place are unevenly distributed and of varying heights.
The cocking handle gives every appearance of having been serrated with a file.
The "cooling" holes don't appear to be evenly drilled.
The furniture looks hand made.
I'm seriously thinking that this is a workshop gun.
I'm also seeing a lot of indications that this was hand made, not a factory production gun.
The numeral stamps appear to be hand applied.
The rivets holding the magazine well in place are unevenly distributed and of varying heights.
The cocking handle gives every appearance of having been serrated with a file.
The "cooling" holes don't appear to be evenly drilled.
The furniture looks hand made.
I'm seriously thinking that this is a workshop gun.
It's a Beretta Model 1 or 2. Variation of their M38.
http://world.guns.ru/smg/it/beretta-m1938-e.html
http://world.guns.ru/smg/it/beretta-m1938-e.html
Mike Irwin
Staff
I think at best it is a copy of a Beretta, but I'm positive it has nothing to do with Italy.
There are some serious differences.
There are some serious differences.
Another possibility is a model shop job, a "proof of concept" whipped up just to see if something will work. Still, I am inclined to the "Darra" idea, though the work could have been done almost anywhere in Africa or Asia (or Chicago?).
FWIW, a rather well known designer of submachineguns once told me that the hardest part of an SMG for the DIY guy is the magazine. If magazines can be obtained, the rest is easy.
Jim
FWIW, a rather well known designer of submachineguns once told me that the hardest part of an SMG for the DIY guy is the magazine. If magazines can be obtained, the rest is easy.
Jim
Kotharu.khasis
Inactive
No more information has been forthcoming from the gun owner.
As most suggested, it must've been an one-off job.
I hope I get the chance to try it as I'm travelling there in a month or so. I will report back the results.
Thanks for all the info.
As most suggested, it must've been an one-off job.
I hope I get the chance to try it as I'm travelling there in a month or so. I will report back the results.
Thanks for all the info.
Check out this YouTube on WWII Weapons in Syria. Pay close attention about 3:10 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IErsZx5Z1qw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IErsZx5Z1qw
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I was looking through the history of Mendoza Arms in Mexico today after reading another thread and that looks similar to some of their creations. Of course, almost all of the cheap SMGs look pretty similar.
As James K stated, SMGs are pretty simple, especially since a rifled barrl is optional. It would take me weeks or more to make a functional 1911 from stock with blue prints, but I could probably make an SMG in a weekend without prints. That is having seen prints of simple SMGs previously and never manufactured either.
I would need a mill and lathe for the 1911, but might be bale to make the SMG with a drill press and file.
Except the magazine on both accounts. More time and more machinery.
As James K stated, SMGs are pretty simple, especially since a rifled barrl is optional. It would take me weeks or more to make a functional 1911 from stock with blue prints, but I could probably make an SMG in a weekend without prints. That is having seen prints of simple SMGs previously and never manufactured either.
I would need a mill and lathe for the 1911, but might be bale to make the SMG with a drill press and file.
Except the magazine on both accounts. More time and more machinery.
While I can't help positively ID this SMG. I am on board with many that say this is a copy / hybrid of something. (I also agree with the Beretta reference).
If anyone here ever gets an opportunity to visit the gun bazaars of Pakistan you will be absolutely amazed and astounded at what can be turned out by some of these folks with nothing more than a few files, hand drill, and small forge. The work is nothing short of incredible. I could spend days there doing nothing but observing these craftsmen and how they do what.
On a side note, from everyone I talked to the security situation is still very bad and unless you have your own security it's probably not safe for any Westerner or even European to go.
Regards,
Rob
If anyone here ever gets an opportunity to visit the gun bazaars of Pakistan you will be absolutely amazed and astounded at what can be turned out by some of these folks with nothing more than a few files, hand drill, and small forge. The work is nothing short of incredible. I could spend days there doing nothing but observing these craftsmen and how they do what.
On a side note, from everyone I talked to the security situation is still very bad and unless you have your own security it's probably not safe for any Westerner or even European to go.
Regards,
Rob
Kotharu.khasis
Inactive
Hi all
Finally I got to check the gun.
As far as I could tell, it's a gunsmith's attempt at replicating a Beretta 38 with a clear aim at shortening it.
Some parts appear to have been scavenged from prior SMGs, others were manufactured to copy the model 38, and some are original parts.
The barrel is a rifled shortened part of an original.
The bolt is copied from an original and modified to shorten it and the receiver with it.
Build quality of manufactured parts is crude to say the least.
The owner assured me that it shoots like a charm, but I couldn't test it myself.
That gun seems to have been in use by traffickers during the fifties in the Levant.
For all they know it originated in Egypt, probably used by Egyptian troops during the closing days of the WW-II.
I took pictures of the dismantled gun, but the owner asked me not to post them online... for that I'm sorry.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
Finally I got to check the gun.
As far as I could tell, it's a gunsmith's attempt at replicating a Beretta 38 with a clear aim at shortening it.
Some parts appear to have been scavenged from prior SMGs, others were manufactured to copy the model 38, and some are original parts.
The barrel is a rifled shortened part of an original.
The bolt is copied from an original and modified to shorten it and the receiver with it.
Build quality of manufactured parts is crude to say the least.
The owner assured me that it shoots like a charm, but I couldn't test it myself.
That gun seems to have been in use by traffickers during the fifties in the Levant.
For all they know it originated in Egypt, probably used by Egyptian troops during the closing days of the WW-II.
I took pictures of the dismantled gun, but the owner asked me not to post them online... for that I'm sorry.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.