Identify/fix this old SxS Percussion musket with plugged flash channels

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mariner3302

Inactive
Hi, been a long time since I have been on forums. I need help with this from the collective. I bought this old gun in a small shop in Wyoming a little while ago. It is like nothing I have ever seen and has very interesting (spelled What the hell is THAT) features. It has also had its flash channels plugged. If anyone has ANY ideas of what this is, please chime in. There are no makers marks or stamps of any kind on it.
It was marked on the tag as a mid 1800's Howdah gun in the shop. The previous owner didn't furnish anymore info. I can believe this due to the thick barrels, no sights, and short length but again I have no idea. The identical grooves cut into the front of the barrels makes me wonder if it had either a bayonet, flash hider, or some sort of barrel cap to keep out the weather.
The large lug under the barrels that the ramrod goes through would suggest to me that it could be mounted on some sort of a swivel thus allowing the shooter to swing and engage immediately.
The hammers and action are in great shape and don't look like they have been used although at some point someone did snap them onto the nipples. The left nipple was mushroomed a bit. The nipples appear new and were loosely screwed into the barrels. The patchbox just looks a little off for an original and the grip butt has what I believe to be a cap holder. Again, it is just a little off. I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone said the barrels had been refitted to a different stock at some point.
Now the flash channels... they are filled with a hard metal, not lead and I don't think solder. First I tried to drill into it gently with a tiny bit but it barely cut into it although it did. I heated it with a torch thinking if it were solder that at least a little would soften but it didn't. I only heated them and poked at the metal. I didn't bring it up to glowing. What it DID do was to make the breech plugs weep out a bit of old black tarish stuff. Thereby I know where the plugs are generally located. I saw the flash channels where they come out inside the barrels and they are centered and look correct. It is hard to tell if they are plugged but I think probably although there isn't any indication that anything dripped into the barrels.
So, there it is... Anybody got some idea's? Or know where to go to find out more info?
 

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That could be some sort of guild gun, from Belgium, where its not marked. However, it should have a proof house mark, somewhere on the barrel set I would think, but maybe not. If it were military, it would be stamped in several places. The guild students made both double rifles and shotguns.

The Gun does not look Asian, but it does look European or maybe American. There's the possibility of it being a custom, from an old US Gunsmith somewhere.

I think the front attachment, at the rod lug, is for a sling, and by the thickness of the barrels, it was a double rifle., and possibly smooth bored.

Does the sideplates have anything of note on them?
 
First, I strongly suggest you NOT heat the chamber area without careful checking; it is quite possible that the old gun is still loaded and heat could set off the charge(s), even blowing up the gun and injuring someone.

Howdah guns were large caliber pistols, usually four barrel, carried in a "howdah" or a sort of a people-basket mounted on an elephant. Tigers were hunted in that manner in India and the "howdah gun" was intended for use in case a tiger didn't like the idea and decided to jump into the howdah and turn the tables on the hunters.

That gun looks more like a fairly conventional double rifle. It was very probably rifled originally, but the rifling has been destroyed by rust and corrosion. I see no sign that it was intended as a swivel gun, but maybe I am missing something.

But it looks like there were orignally standard nipples, which were removed and the holes plugged. When the old timers felt an old gun was dangerous, for whatever reason, they often deactivated it and hung it on the wall as a keepsake. It is uusually a good idea to realize that our ancestors were no dummies, and that if someone felt that gun would be better left unfired, he might just have had a darned good reason.

I agree that pictures of any markings, on or under the barrels, and on the lockplates would be helpful.

Jim
 
Jim, That lug could be for a tall wooden-legged bipod, the more I think about it. I seem to remember seeing something similar for big game hunting, on old European double rifles. I'll look through my Greener book tomorrow, and see if it mentions or shows anything of the sort. I have a few other books on collectible doubles, but I don't know if they show anything that old.
 
Thanks for the replies! As far as markings, there are none. Ñada. The lug mid barrel is much to thick for a sling swivel in my view. I keep thinking it would be useful to drop in a one or two leg shooting stick but who knows. The gun IS unloaded and the flash channels in the barrels are visible. It is a smooth bore and has really no signs of having been fired much. There is no rust but a very good and correct patina inside the barrels and outside on the whole gun. It is definitely old, but how old.
I did read that Howdah rifles were the predecessor's of the pistols and were in use for only a very short time. I don't really get the feeling this gun started life all together. The barrels are aged but the stock and locksets don't appear to be as old. I'm not so interested in getting it working as figuring out what the interesting features are and where it may have come from. I definitely agree it is probably a one off or something not mass produced. The lack of sights and the barrel channels up front are interesting.
Here are all the pictures I have...
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fslgc11symciqf2/AACbS2Scfo9qdPv8Qab8EEx_a?dl=0
 
You know... There aren't numbers/letters... But there are dots on the bottom of the barrels. 2 each about a 1/4" apart parallel to the barrels and equally spaced to each other. I'll get a picture tomorrow.
 
Dots or lines were often used as batch markings in small shops to keep the pieces of a gun together after fitting.

If there are no proof marks, a Belgian or British origin can be ruled out.

Jim
 
I think the line connected dots are indexing marks for the breech plugs. The black is the old gunk that melted when I heated it. I'm not sure why the dot on the side of the barrel except to signify it goes on that particular side. The lines on that barrel lug could mean something, maybe?
 

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I'm thinking this was a custom gun, by some old Gunsmith, maybe trained in Europe, but came to the US. Without a proof mark, that kills the idea of any European gun house made rifle, though the style does look European. I'm pretty sure the guild guns were all proofed, and if so, would bear the Belgium proof mark. The Asian and Middle-Eastern guns, that I've seen, look too different in style to match this.

There were some good Gunsmiths who immigrated here, especially to the colonies. It could have easily come from one of them, and the gun would most likely not have a proof mark, if early enough. However, the maker generally left his mark somewhere, and generally hid it on the sideplates.

Another thing of notice, is that the stock looks to be Black Walnut. If it had been European, it would have most likely been English Walnut, which is a lighter Walnut, with different figuring.
 
Would the lack of decoration make it more likely to be one of a kind or a practice build? The cuts to the front of the barrels fascinates me. What could they be for? I've seen a couple guns looking through Google images that have the general look of this but nothing enough to compare to, if that makes sense... I haven't taken apart the locks of an old longun. Is it likely or not that the maker may have put marks inside the lockplates and out of sight? There are no sight mounting fixtures that I can tell.
 
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The cuts look like they're not cuts, but joints where barrel extensions were added. The whole thing, especially the over thick barrels is screaming non-firearm to me. Something just ain't right about it. Too clean and pretty for one to be old. The nipple holes drilled through?
"...kills the idea of any European gun house made rifle..." Kills European altogether, I would think. That and the thickness of the barrel walls.
 
This whole piece looks like a decoration to me. The barrel walls are too thick for a shotgun, but there's no evidence of rifling. The nipples look like they were never drilled either. The only confusing thing is the apparent age, it looks older than the gun laws that drove the creation of most non-firearm guns.
 
It could have been a movie prop, if the nipples were not drilled. However, that is an awful expensive piece of wood for a prop. They generally either used real guns, with blanks, or they made fakes, with faux wood grain painted on cheap wood, to simulate something expensive. The camera picks it up as better than it actually is.

They made double rifles similar to that, and some were unrifled or smooth bored, which would account for the thick walls. I would not look at that part as not being authentic, as it could be either or. That looks to be a copy of, or an original, old black powder drilling.

The last thing it could have been is an unfiring prototype. They might have used the best wood, etc., for show to customers or potential marketers. I think it was meant to be a double drilling (rifle). Here, you would not see any proof marks, either.
 
I agree that it's made to be a non-firing rifle. Display model or prototype. The nipples are not uniform and there is no checkering on the hammers. I say meant to be looked at from the side and not handled.

Tk
 
Jim, I noticed no sights, too, and just figured if it was a prototype, they didn't want to waste extra money on mounting sights. Then again, by using the wood they did, they sunk some cash in that, but that type of Walnut was more plentiful years ago, and may not have been as costly as now.

There's so many either-ors on this, that it's hard to determine what it really is.
 
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