I wish I could train myself to do this.

briandg

New member
I have always kept myself aware when in public. I have never spent a lot of time in stop and rob stores, until lately, I live on coffee from them.

When I walk into a business of any sort, I carefully look over the body language of the people to gather information relevant to their reason to be there. If I see someone furtively looking around, not paying any attention to the merchandise before him, reading the labels on a bra, etc, it indicates to me that he is not actually there to shop, hence, why is he there?

Several times I have spotted store security that way.

The thing that I don't do, and need to develop, is sweep the clothing up and down looking for weapons. It's become a more serious issue since the time that a concealed weapon used to be the big lockblade.

Obviously, one of the reasons I want to know if there are any armed people in my presence is that I want to know if any of them are scoping me out as well.
 
I'll say this about that: If I walk into a store and I see someone furtively looking around, not paying attention to the merchandise before him, looking at me and sizing me up, etc, it indicates that he is not there to shop and is likely a threat to me. I would have my eyes glued on that person- AND THAT PERSON WOULD BE YOU!

Just a thought.
 
Thanks. I never thought about that. you can consider me enlightened, and I'll stop doing that immediately.
 
In this day and age, if you are busy looking up and down someone while searching for concealed weapons, you will most likely either get hit or get hit on! Don't cruise the shoppers! :D
 
Certainly not at the stop and Rob.

Otoh, the one near my house was robbed recently, a guy with a rifle who shot up the building. The one down south is very educational as well.

We don't have many armed robbers,, but they tend to be armed when they find out that all they got was fifty and a slurpee, and get peeved.

I've stayed in my parked car and waited twice because a risky situation appeared to be unfolding
 
If someone is armed or not is at most a secondary concern. Assume anyone who is acting out of the ordinary or as a threat is armed and you are preparing for the worst. You cannot assume all armed individuals are a threat as this thread indicates.

My example. Yesterday I was transferring some trucks and was at a retail storage lot. I was the only person in there and waiting for the truck I was leaving with to be cleared off and brought around front. My ride had already left so I was left without a great option of simply walking out.

There were two ladies at the counter who seemed remarkably apathetic about the overdue storage bill (I heard numbers in the couple hundred dollar range). I had moved towards the front of the store in a corner and watched one car pull up and the people wait inside it until another car came in. Six people now come into the store. Not a major concern just struck me as a bit odd. There is one employee and the people with the storage bill are now talking with some of the people from the car while the new person is attempting to rent a truck and seeming to have issues with appropriate deposit / identification. I figure this is not horribly uncommon.

One of the individuals is looking at the merchandise on the peg hook on the wall. Not out of the ordinary but its towing equipment and none of the vehicles outside are vehicles that anyone is towing with. She keeps getting closer to where I am standing so I move a bit out of the way. Now she is basically standing in a corner at the front of the store with nothing in it though her back is to the store. She has basically taken the spot I was standing seems to be, at the time, intentionally not facing the cameras.

I took off my jacket at this point, my CCW is still covered by my shirt, and held it in my off hand while moving to a bit better of a spot in the store. They left, no incident, and the truck I was waiting on was brought around.

Still struck me as odd. I was concerned about her behavior and the behavior of those in the store being out of the ordinary. Being armed or not... secondary. You can only pay attention to so many things and worrying about if someone is armed or not may make you not see other "tells"
 
The thing that I don't do, and need to develop, is sweep the clothing up and down looking for weapons. It's become a more serious issue since the time that a concealed weapon used to be the big lockblade.

I'll say this about that: If I walk into a store and I see someone furtively looking around, not paying attention to the merchandise before him, looking at me and sizing me up, etc, it indicates that he is not there to shop and is likely a threat to me. I would have my eyes glued on that person- AND THAT PERSON WOULD BE YOU!

Just a thought.

Exactly, and that behavior plays right into the antis' reasons why CC should not be allowed. Don't be that paranoid person that causes an incident with another CC person.
 
Much of that visual assessment (or 'ocular patdowns') can be done covertly enough that no one else can tell what you are doing.

If you need practice doing it, go have a seat at the food court of a nearby mall and just watch people. Take someone with you and compare notes of who you identify as being 'sketchy' and why.

And as the two of you identify 'bogies', exercise your detail-recall ability. What were they wearing, height, weight, tattoos, piercings, etc.

This skill set does become second nature.
 
If I walk in a store and see someone that appears to be "casing" the place...I LEAVE.

It is my responsibility to try to keep myself out of harms way...if something doesn't look right, I don't need to be there.
 
briandg wrote:
If I see someone furtively looking around, not paying any attention to the merchandise before him, ... it indicates to me that he is not actually there to shop, hence, why is he there?

Actually, when you are looking at the other patrons to try and determine whether they are or are not armed, you are engaging in precisely the kind of behavior you are regarding as suspicious.

In fact, if we both entered the same store at the same time, we would both be looking over our environment trying to establish whether it was safe before we started looking at the merchandise, so you need to extend to others the same latitude you expect to be shown yourself in similar circumstances.
 
I see talk often of "sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves" by people who insist they are sheepdogs. Aside from actual compelling actions which we hope to not be around to see and retreat at indication of when possible many of us cannot tell the different between wolves and sheepdogs. I know that people want to insist there is some obvious difference that somehow other "wolves" and "sheepdogs" should be able to pick up on to tell who is a "wolf" and who is a "sheepdog" but I doubt there is.
 
It appears that every one of you is saying that situational awareness is a bad thing. There is not a bloody thing wrong with visually sweeping across a room, doing a quick assessment, and then keeping a peripheral watch on anyone who doesn't look right. It takes less than three seconds to see where people are and what they are doing as you step through the door, and nobody in the world will know whether you are looking at the people or just looking for the frozen yogurt machine. After entry, it's nothing at all to keep your eyes moving, rather than standing and looking at the can of coke in your hand. If I have seen something odd, I can observe and report what happened or do whatever other things are appropriate.

If you guys can't do this without alerting people to your actions, you aren't any good at it. It's that bloody simple. .


shootin iron, answer a single question.

Let's say you walk into a store, you look the place over, and you see something odd, like three people who appear to be wearing gang clothes and sunglasses at night. They are spaced out and may be watching the witnesses and target. Then you turn around and walk out. Hey, you have just been recorded on security cameras as having walked into a place, casing it, and walked right out without any particular reason right before a strongarm robbery took place.

Knowing who and what are in your vicinity, especially in a place that has an above average record for criminal activity is situational awareness. it is the right thing to do. Now how in heck is anyone supposed to be aware without looking?

Discussion over on my part.
 
Even though Brian has chosen to exit the discussion (maybe he comes back) you do see a point. For all the talk I really do not care if you see me as a threat or not. If you mean me harm I prefer you see me as enough of a threat to move on and find an easier target. I am fairly dismissive when I scan of people who are not in reasonable physical shape and walking with their heads down. Does that mean I give extra attention to those in reasonable shape with their heads up and eyes moving? Yep. Sure do. In order not to I would have to be one of those people walking around with my eyes down and not paying attention.

The big question is not if you pay attention but at what point you label someone a potential risk and how that impacts your actions.
 
Let's say you walk into a store, you look the place over, and you see something odd, like three people who appear to be wearing gang clothes and sunglasses at night. They are spaced out and may be watching the witnesses and target. Then you turn around and walk out. Hey, you have just been recorded on security cameras as having walked into a place, casing it, and walked right out without any particular reason right before a strongarm robbery took place.

Those same cameras would show that I was not wearing gang clothes, sunglasses and I did not rob the store.
 
Actually, when you are looking at the other patrons to try and determine whether they are or are not armed, you are engaging in precisely the kind of behavior you are regarding as suspicious.
If you haven't figured out how to scan your surroundings and evaluate threats while remaining inconspicuous, you need to practice it until you get it right.

Its not that complicated.

Let's say you walk into a store, you look the place over, and you see something odd, like three people who appear to be wearing gang clothes and sunglasses at night. They are spaced out and may be watching the witnesses and target. Then you turn around and walk out. Hey, you have just been recorded on security cameras as having walked into a place, casing it, and walked right out without any particular reason right before a strongarm robbery took place.

The majority of criminals out there are not as tactically minded as you believe them to be. And you are assuming that these criminals are always going to be dressed up as 'gang members'. Where I live, there is no dress code for gang members. Kind of hard when most of the year its cold and snowy.
And if these criminals are 'casing' the place, its usually done from outside. They know what they are after, and go right for it when they enter whatever place they are robbing. Get in, get out, quick as possible. No hanging around scanning the other customers, because they konw 90% of retail establishments have security cameras.
 
The big question is not if you pay attention but at what point you label someone a potential risk and how that impacts your actions.

Some good stuff above (mixed in with some nonsense too, of course - the nature of online life!) about assessing the situation on entering a store or new environment.

A few people have responded as if this sizing-up has to take a bunch of time, or as if it necessarily involves ... suspicious ... body language on the part of the person looking around. It does not need to do either of those things.

I'm a big fan of paying attention to the people around me in a normal, everyday sort of way. When entering a store, for example, look around as if looking for the clerk, then make eye contact and nod. Nothing out of the ordinary there. You can look around much more slowly and more completely before asking where the bathroom is (and if the sign is large and right there and bloody obvious, so what? They get that question a dozen times a day anyway, and nobody thinks it suspicious that a person might look but not see even the most obvious sign.) These are normal interactions, not outside any norm that I ever heard of.

If someone else in the store catches me looking at them, a brief nod & smile in their direction (perhaps even a voice greeting, depending on the part of the country I'm in) easily takes care of it.

As for whether it's good to look around in the first place, I'd say it's downright foolish not to. It's weird that people are pinging on this as if it were a bad thing.

***

Signs of things maybe going south:

People out of place, doing things that are out of place for the location.

Nervous twitches, bouncing on the balls of the feet while looking around with quick darting glances.
Hands that clench and unclench at a person's side or in a hoodie pocket.
(Both of those are symptoms of adrenaline dump, plus the darting glance thing is often a check for witnesses. People looking to assess tend to have a more calm, smooth eye and face movement.)

Two people entering the store together while a third one stays outside (esp if outside person has the nervous twitchy looking around thing going on).

Car backed into a spot near the front/side of the store with the engine running.

A person leaning against the outside of the building doing nothing in particular with one knee up (foot flat against the wall) and looking around -- especially if two or three other people are talking to each other nearby. That guy may be a lookout for the drug deal, with a quick access weapon held in the crook of his knee. This isn't necessarily a sign of impending violence inside the store, but definitely a sign you want to shop elsewhere.

***

As for actions taken in response to most of this stuff, I'm a big fan of being elsewhere when it's reasonably possible, and in a probably-okay situation I'm a big fan of getting to a place where I can quickly and easily leave while I look for more information about what's going on. I'm also okay with never knowing the end of the story. Drive away...

The world is not going to come to a screeching halt if I decide to pay at the pump and not enter the store at all. Or if I decide to sit in my car for a few minutes before I go into the store. Or if I decide to leave the store abruptly and come back after the question mark has resolved itself.

pax

"Many victims of violent crimes have stated that they knew there was a developing problem, stating that they could ‘feel’ it coming, yet they ignored their ‘emotional instincts’ and subsequently became victims. Other victims never saw anything coming even though afterwards an in-depth debriefing showed that danger signs were evident and should have been recognized well ahead of time. I’ve personally interviewed such victims many times over the years. Other victims have clearly observed evidence of a potential problem yet chose to ignore it altogether. A classic example of the latter occurred in Southern California in the early 1980’s. Customers inside a McDonald’s restaurant observed a man in the parking lot standing beside a pickup truck loading ammunition into weapons and placing them in his waistband and then obtaining more firearms from the pickup truck and walking toward them. Yet the customers continued to sit and simply stare at him, as if they were watching a bad movie but couldn’t walk out of the theater. The gunman entered the restaurant, where he killed and wounded many patrons. Simply walking out the opposite door would have saved them, yet they chose to ignore clear evidence of a developing dangerous situation." – Scott Reitz
 
Signs of things maybe going south:

People out of place, doing things that are out of place for the location.

Nervous twitches, bouncing on the balls of the feet while looking around with quick darting glances.
Hands that clench and unclench at a person's side or in a hoodie pocket.
(Both of those are symptoms of adrenaline dump, plus the darting glance thing is often a check for witnesses. People looking to assess tend to have a more calm, smooth eye and face movement.)

Two people entering the store together while a third one stays outside (esp if outside person has the nervous twitchy looking around thing going on).

Car backed into a spot near the front/side of the store with the engine running.

A person leaning against the outside of the building doing nothing in particular with one knee up (foot flat against the wall) and looking around -- especially if two or three other people are talking to each other nearby. That guy may be a lookout for the drug deal, with a quick access weapon held in the crook of his knee. This isn't necessarily a sign of impending violence inside the store, but definitely a sign you want to shop elsewhere.
Excellent!

I'll add one: a person tying to look as if he is shopping, but who is not really paying attention to anything on the shelves, who is observing other shoppers.
 
It appears that every one of you is saying that situational awareness is a bad thing. There is not a bloody thing wrong with visually sweeping across a room, doing a quick assessment, and then keeping a peripheral watch on anyone who doesn't look right.

I don't think anyone is saying not to be aware - the way YOU described it however, came across like you were going to be staring in a blatant determined manner that might make someone suspect YOU of being the bad guy about to pull something..so if you're description was misunderstood, then that is something else.
 
There are good folks who train you in these matters with quality FOF (like Pax). Might look into it. Self-training is fine but only goes so far.

Of course, one may have to travel and spend a buck.
 
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