I have faith in the Steyr M series. So I did the following tests to check out the Steyr M357:
1. Live out of battery test
2. bullet setback testing with No. 9 powder.
Summary: The Steyr worked flawlessly for me. It shot in full battery mode only. And the Steyr took all the full power proof loads of bullet setback cartridges like a breeze. And after 2000 rounds, all parts look good.
Detail of all the testing follows:
When you rack the slide back in slow motion about 1/4", it sticks in place. As soon as the slide sticks in this position, the load indicator at the back of the slide shows empty. At any position prior to the 1/4" position, the slide easily moves back to full battery and continues to show a round in the chamber via the load indicator.
So I went to the range and did some "live" out of battery testing. Don't you try this. You have to either have a lot of faith in your interpretation of how the pistol functions, or be crazy. I fit both statements. You don't.
1. I pulled the slide back about 1/4" where it normally sticks. I pulled the trigger. It did not fire. I then extracted the cartridge to examine it. It had a very light primer strike way off to the side, which could not come close to striking the primer hard enough for a reaction. I did this same test 9 more times. Each time, the exact same scenario, sometimes even reusing the same cartridge a couple times.
2. I then moved the slide back 1/8" very slowly. This was a little trickier since the slide kept wanting to close. If I moved in "slow" motion, I could get it to work, sometimes. I pulled the trigger. It did not fire. Again, there was a very light primer strike off to the side. I did this same test several more times. Each time, the exact same scenario.
3. I then pulled the slide back about 1/16". This was very, very difficult because the slide would just jump back to full battery. If I moved very slowly I could sometimes pull the trigger before the slide moved. The trigger action or normal hand movement would be enough to move the slide to full battery. Several times though, I could not keep the slide back 1/16" and it would jump into full battery. When the gun fired each time, the casing had deep primer dents right in the middle of the primer as expected.
Then of course, I did my usual massive firing sequences in normal mode. The M357 worked flawlessly. I now have 1700 rounds through it, including some very high pressure test rounds as described below. Again, don't you try these tests.
Every gun I've ever tested has a little bit of play in the full battery mode.
Regarding holstering a pistol: I learned a long time ago with my Glock 35, to always put my thumb behind the slide to hold it in place as I holstered the pistol. Otherwise, the pistol might not fire when you drew it to shoot.
In the 12 o'clock slow motion test (empty chamber), the slide can stick out of battery if you very slowly move the slide back a little. But, if you move the slide back an inch and let the recoil spring work as engineered, the slide closes perfectly in the 12 o'clock position every time.
To check a round in the chamber, the Steyr is obviously made to take advantage of the load indicator in the back of the slide. Or you can look down the drill hole in the top of the slide to see a cartridge. As long as the Steyr is operated as it is intended, it appears to work excellently for me.
In summary:
-----------
As expected, I could not get the Steyr M357 to fire out of battery. I feel that the M357 is working within a safe level of mechanical parameters unless someone can prove me wrong.
Bullet Setback Testing with Acurate Arms #9
-------------------------------------------
WARNING: I do not recommend the following tests to be performed by anyone!. You are responsible for your own actions!
I chrono'd some loads with an overall length of 1.135, some at 1.126, and then I actually pushed the bullet in as far as possible until it fully compressed the powder. The powder was the only thing holding the bullet in place!
In order to simulate the bullet setback, I had to bell the case a bit, no cannelure was used, and of course no crimp at all. I also used old brass since bullet slippage is easier when the brass is not new. I then used a Dillon flat wrench to help me push the bullet into the case, using a cement floor for leverage. Don't try this folks!
oal = overall cartridge length
357 SIG OAL normally runs between 1.120 to 1.140.
At 13.0 grains of #9, the bullet could be forced in to an oal between 1.1195 - 1.235.
At 12.6 grains, the bullet could be forced in to an oal between 1.1115 - 1.116.
At 12.2 grains, between 1.0975 - 1.1055.
I repeat, the compressed powder was the only thing holding the bullet in place, by forcing a bullet setback!!!
The bullet setback results:
At 13.0 of #9:
1.135 oal velocity average: 1265 fps
1.126 oal velocity average: 1266 fps
bullet setback cartridge average: 1272 fps
At 12.6
(12.7) 1.135 oal velocity average: 1234 fps
1.126 oal velocity average: 1227 fps
bullet setback cartridge average: 1245 fps
At 12.2
(12.1) 1.135 oal velocity average: 1165 fps
1.126 oal velocity average: 1188 fps
bullet setback average: 1214 fps
In all the above tests, the brass looked normal and measured identical between the normal and bullet setbacked loadings. Perceived recoil between the loadings appeared to be similar. I'll be contacting AA to find out if they can do some pressure testing with #9 with shorter OAL's.
What's interesting is that the velocities between oal's with 1.135, 1.126 and the fully setback loads are all fairly similar.
Summary:
I could not blow up my Steyr M357. It should be noted that the Steyr chamber is somewhat unique regarding pistols. A cartridge is fully supported all the way around the chamber, including the 6 o'clock chamber opening, which is the usual weak spot for pistols. This is where the feed ramp joins the chamber and exposes some brass for most other pistols.
AA#9 appears to not only power the bullets sufficiently, but has a dual purpose of holding the bullet in place if bullet slippage should occur. The new AA Reloading Manual also states that #9 actually compresses with the bullet insertion process and the powder actually works quite well.
I did notice that some of the unburnt AA#9 powder did end up on my chronograph ten feet away. At first, I thought it was just a little dust. So, even if you miss the bad guy, you can temporarily blind him by throwing powder in his face.
Note: Since I normally use a cannelure grooved bullet and a roll crimp, I am more than satisfied that this process alone is sufficient and safe to shoot 357 SIG reloads. The above test with #9 is just a secondary defense which might be of use.
Note: I have a much more complete description of this article, with charts, at my site below. I hope to have the information completed within a few days.
cheers,
pete
[Edited by petej88 on 12-02-2000 at 12:28 PM]
1. Live out of battery test
2. bullet setback testing with No. 9 powder.
Summary: The Steyr worked flawlessly for me. It shot in full battery mode only. And the Steyr took all the full power proof loads of bullet setback cartridges like a breeze. And after 2000 rounds, all parts look good.
Detail of all the testing follows:
When you rack the slide back in slow motion about 1/4", it sticks in place. As soon as the slide sticks in this position, the load indicator at the back of the slide shows empty. At any position prior to the 1/4" position, the slide easily moves back to full battery and continues to show a round in the chamber via the load indicator.
So I went to the range and did some "live" out of battery testing. Don't you try this. You have to either have a lot of faith in your interpretation of how the pistol functions, or be crazy. I fit both statements. You don't.
1. I pulled the slide back about 1/4" where it normally sticks. I pulled the trigger. It did not fire. I then extracted the cartridge to examine it. It had a very light primer strike way off to the side, which could not come close to striking the primer hard enough for a reaction. I did this same test 9 more times. Each time, the exact same scenario, sometimes even reusing the same cartridge a couple times.
2. I then moved the slide back 1/8" very slowly. This was a little trickier since the slide kept wanting to close. If I moved in "slow" motion, I could get it to work, sometimes. I pulled the trigger. It did not fire. Again, there was a very light primer strike off to the side. I did this same test several more times. Each time, the exact same scenario.
3. I then pulled the slide back about 1/16". This was very, very difficult because the slide would just jump back to full battery. If I moved very slowly I could sometimes pull the trigger before the slide moved. The trigger action or normal hand movement would be enough to move the slide to full battery. Several times though, I could not keep the slide back 1/16" and it would jump into full battery. When the gun fired each time, the casing had deep primer dents right in the middle of the primer as expected.
Then of course, I did my usual massive firing sequences in normal mode. The M357 worked flawlessly. I now have 1700 rounds through it, including some very high pressure test rounds as described below. Again, don't you try these tests.
Every gun I've ever tested has a little bit of play in the full battery mode.
Regarding holstering a pistol: I learned a long time ago with my Glock 35, to always put my thumb behind the slide to hold it in place as I holstered the pistol. Otherwise, the pistol might not fire when you drew it to shoot.
In the 12 o'clock slow motion test (empty chamber), the slide can stick out of battery if you very slowly move the slide back a little. But, if you move the slide back an inch and let the recoil spring work as engineered, the slide closes perfectly in the 12 o'clock position every time.
To check a round in the chamber, the Steyr is obviously made to take advantage of the load indicator in the back of the slide. Or you can look down the drill hole in the top of the slide to see a cartridge. As long as the Steyr is operated as it is intended, it appears to work excellently for me.
In summary:
-----------
As expected, I could not get the Steyr M357 to fire out of battery. I feel that the M357 is working within a safe level of mechanical parameters unless someone can prove me wrong.
Bullet Setback Testing with Acurate Arms #9
-------------------------------------------
WARNING: I do not recommend the following tests to be performed by anyone!. You are responsible for your own actions!
I chrono'd some loads with an overall length of 1.135, some at 1.126, and then I actually pushed the bullet in as far as possible until it fully compressed the powder. The powder was the only thing holding the bullet in place!
In order to simulate the bullet setback, I had to bell the case a bit, no cannelure was used, and of course no crimp at all. I also used old brass since bullet slippage is easier when the brass is not new. I then used a Dillon flat wrench to help me push the bullet into the case, using a cement floor for leverage. Don't try this folks!
oal = overall cartridge length
357 SIG OAL normally runs between 1.120 to 1.140.
At 13.0 grains of #9, the bullet could be forced in to an oal between 1.1195 - 1.235.
At 12.6 grains, the bullet could be forced in to an oal between 1.1115 - 1.116.
At 12.2 grains, between 1.0975 - 1.1055.
I repeat, the compressed powder was the only thing holding the bullet in place, by forcing a bullet setback!!!
The bullet setback results:
At 13.0 of #9:
1.135 oal velocity average: 1265 fps
1.126 oal velocity average: 1266 fps
bullet setback cartridge average: 1272 fps
At 12.6
(12.7) 1.135 oal velocity average: 1234 fps
1.126 oal velocity average: 1227 fps
bullet setback cartridge average: 1245 fps
At 12.2
(12.1) 1.135 oal velocity average: 1165 fps
1.126 oal velocity average: 1188 fps
bullet setback average: 1214 fps
In all the above tests, the brass looked normal and measured identical between the normal and bullet setbacked loadings. Perceived recoil between the loadings appeared to be similar. I'll be contacting AA to find out if they can do some pressure testing with #9 with shorter OAL's.
What's interesting is that the velocities between oal's with 1.135, 1.126 and the fully setback loads are all fairly similar.
Summary:
I could not blow up my Steyr M357. It should be noted that the Steyr chamber is somewhat unique regarding pistols. A cartridge is fully supported all the way around the chamber, including the 6 o'clock chamber opening, which is the usual weak spot for pistols. This is where the feed ramp joins the chamber and exposes some brass for most other pistols.
AA#9 appears to not only power the bullets sufficiently, but has a dual purpose of holding the bullet in place if bullet slippage should occur. The new AA Reloading Manual also states that #9 actually compresses with the bullet insertion process and the powder actually works quite well.
I did notice that some of the unburnt AA#9 powder did end up on my chronograph ten feet away. At first, I thought it was just a little dust. So, even if you miss the bad guy, you can temporarily blind him by throwing powder in his face.
Note: Since I normally use a cannelure grooved bullet and a roll crimp, I am more than satisfied that this process alone is sufficient and safe to shoot 357 SIG reloads. The above test with #9 is just a secondary defense which might be of use.
Note: I have a much more complete description of this article, with charts, at my site below. I hope to have the information completed within a few days.
cheers,
pete
[Edited by petej88 on 12-02-2000 at 12:28 PM]