I think this settles nra's anti 2nd amendment attitude about full autos

tooltimey

Moderator
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2007/10/shhhwe-dont-dare-talk-about-machine.html

I considered it settled an obvious a long time ago that the NRA is anti 2nd amendment when it comes to machine guns, but this settles it even clearer (as if that was even possible).

Between NRA's support for the 1934 ban and the 1986 ban, I always knew where they stood when it came to the 2nd amendment. However, many people like to play the "that was a long time ago" card. Then came Joaquin Jackson. Now this. I think that many gun owners flat out don't believe in the 2nd amendment anymore when it comes to full autos. Remember, the colonists were on the same level as government troops when it came to firearms. If anything, many colonists were BETTER armed.
 
The NRA doesn't give a flip about the 2nd Amend. All they care about is protecting the "Rights" of their Upper Class, Due's Paying members which would be those that hunt with O/U Shotguns, target shoot in bullseye matches with their heavily modded 1911a1's and maybe go deer or elk hunting with their expensive single shot rifles. None of those guns really apply to a proper "Militia" firearm which IS what the 2nd Amend. is designed to protect and that fully includes Full Auto firearms.
The NRA is a Money Making Business, NOT a Gun Rights organization.
 
Well i am not a member of the NRA, and the NRA wont be able to help if there is a gun grab, though they may be a good organization i just dont see where i would fit in and benifit from it
 
Also, I'm not hackin' on anyone that owns and shoots O/U shotguns, Bullseye pistols or single shot rifles, just trying to give a picture of the kind of "Gun Snobs" the NRA is out to "protect" which leaves most of us Blue Collar guys out in the cold.
 
That's not fair. The NRA's 'support' is why the '34 ban didn't include every magazine that could hold more than 12 rounds.

I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, whether it be asking permission to carry concealed, most of their press releases, or vetting potential employees/board members. I think that a good number of their mouthpieces -- such as the one involved here -- needs a muzzle slapped on until they can figure out the cardinal rule of winning hearts and minds. Not letting the average dues paying member provide a vote on a lotta stuff does not help them.

On the other hand, they've fought "assault weapon" stuff more than enough to make it clear that they're not just in this for the plinkers and fuddites. They could do more for us, true, but that's the case even for the GOA.
 
OK, so some weird blog takes a small part of an interview totally out of context, and now the NRA hates the 2nd amendment. Please. :rolleyes:

By the way, you can buy a machine gun. Legally, even. You pay your money, get your stamp, buy your machine gun, and you can blast away. Have at it.

Otherwise, this thread is a cheesy, unfounded attack on the NRA. Stick to your weird blogs, and join the GOA; it's a perfect match for you.

the NRA wont be able to help if there is a gun grab

Ever heard of what happened in New Orleans right after Hurricaine Katrina? There was a gun grab. Which organization went to federal court, got an injunction signed by a federal judge to stop the gun grab, and then had their fine mayor held in contempt of court for failing to identify and return the guns that were confiscated? Um, now let's think really hard. Um, it's not the GOA, and it was not the weird bloggers, either. Can you guess which organization put an end to Nagin's foolishness?

Troll thread.
 
By the way, you can buy a machine gun. Legally, even. You pay your money, get your stamp, buy your machine gun, and you can blast away. Have at it.

If you have the thousands and thousands of dollars it costs to buy a gun which should run in the hundreds, that's true, for now.

But some of us want to pass our liberties on to our posterity, and post 1986 machine guns are completely BANNED. Pre-1986 machine guns on which people blast away and have at it tend to get very hot and then they break, and you are not allowed to make those parts any more. The stamp you paid thousands to get now covers a worthless hunk of broken metal, and it's a worthless stamp.

That happens all the time, and each time it happens, the remaining guns get more expensive, but still people shoot them. And still they break, and are gone forever.

One day, there will be no more. So while it's true that we can, if we are rich enough, get a machine gun and use it at this moment in history, we have set in motion a slow-motion ban, so that this will not be the case forever.
 
From the GOA website:

"Many people have suggested that GOA go to the courts to get an injunction against the offending officials, but GOA does not have standing to bring suit in these instances. No guns owned by GOA employees were confiscated. The plaintiff in any such action would have to be a person whose rights were directly violated. It is known that there is a directly-affected Louisiana attorney who states he is bringing suit. We would certainly file an amicus brief in this case, and are prepared to spend money to advance it. We approve of court action and will make the appropriate response when any person with standing does bring suit."


Actually, the first organization to blow the whistle on the City was the Second Amendment Foundation. Again though, they didn't have a dog in the fight. The NRA didn't get on board for several days but when they did they got busy and filed a lawsuit.
While I am a member of the NRA I'm not a blind member. I believe there are too many cases of "our" politicians (LaPierre, et al) making sure their jobs are safe rather than working to solve our problems. If it's true that a little revolution from time to time is a good thing then I can't see why a change in leadership isn't equally as good.
 
Sooooooo, the alternative to the NRA is...what? There IS a point to this thread, right? Or are we just bashing the NRA?

As some more senior members will recall, I have been a critic of the NRA in the past, but they ARE better than the Brady Center. That is why I decide to sign up. It is nice to be alerted of any laws that the left may be trying to sneak by. I simply do not have the time to spend scouring the 'net for such information. Furthermore, I own neither a O/U, 1911(modified or otherwise), nor a single shot rifle(expensive or otherwise).

As for the NRA being for gun snobs-that is quite simply rediculous. If you consider $30 a year an extravagance reserved for "rich" people, you are either living nearly a century in the past or below half the poverty line. The fact that you obviously have a computer and the internet would suggest that you are neither. Which brings me back to my origional paragraph-Do you have a point?
 
Sooooooo, the alternative to the NRA is...what? There IS a point to this thread, right? Or are we just bashing the NRA?

GOA, SAF, donations to individual gun rights events or people.

The gun rights movement does not survive only due to the NRA. If they ever become bad, it's not difficult to jump ship. I don't think they are that bad, but they do certainly bug me on a good few subjects.
 
GOA said:
No guns owned by GOA employees were confiscated. The plaintiff in any such action would have to be a person whose rights were directly violated.
The NRA had standing because members of the NRA had their guns confiscated, not NRA employees. The fact that the GOA thinks it must be their own employees is a testament to their own legal ineptitude.

Also, once the NRA attorneys brought the SAF up to speed on standing, they found one of their own members who had a gun confiscated and sued in conjunction with the NRA.

Where was the GOA in all of this? Oh... They didn't have enough membership to canvass.

At any rate, what I see is that we are bashing the NRA, because they aren't advocating our pet portion of the 2A. Right...
 
At any rate, what I see is that we are bashing the NRA, because they aren't advocating our pet portion of the 2A. Right...
So true 2nd amendment firearms (personal arms equal to the military as in revolutionary days) are now a "pet portion" of the 2nd amendment? :barf::rolleyes: The founders (based on their writings) were not cavalier about this right as you sound.

Your sentence that I quoted sounds like an admission that the nra is anti 2nd amendment WHEN IT COMES TO FULL AUTOS. You admitted that they are "not advocating" full autos which actually ARE fully protected by our second amendment, which means the nra is not fully supporting said amendment.
 
No, full autos are not "fully protected" by the 2nd amendment. See, the people who wrote the constitution set aside a whole branch of government to interpret laws, they called this branch, primarily made up of judges, the judicial branch. The highest power within this judicial branch is the supreme court, are you still with me? The supreme court was assigned the task of intrepreting the laws of the land, including the constitution.

Since the supreme court says the 2nd amendment does not "fully protect" an individuals right to own fully automatic weapons then no such right exists. Wishfull thinking of certain fringe groups simply is not enough to make something legal.

Perhaps you could press the issue, I can think of no way to get the constitution amended faster than for the court to decide that the 2nd amendment means that all citizens have the right to own any weapon available to the military. The day after the court rules that the 2nd amendment means full auto congress would start the process of getting rid of the 2nd amendment. Public support would be overwhelming and the subsequent amendment would be much less desirable than the way it is written now.
 
The supreme court was assigned the task of intrepreting the laws of the land, including the constitution.

Uh, that would be assigned themselves the task...

Uh oh, another Marbury v Madison thread.
 
The NRA consists entirely of upper income O/U shotgun and 1911 race gun snobs when a 1 year membership costs $35, $25 if you get a discount? Puhleeze. :rolleyes:

Granted the NRA may not be perfect (hey, why aren't they trying to repeal the '86 new civilian MG ban?) but they are the 800 lb gorilla running around in Congress. As an organization it commands more political muscle than pretty much any other I can think of short of the Republican or Democratic Parties.
 
Among politicians and the liberal media (I know, that's redundant) the NRA is recognized as having considerable clout. I wonder how much more influence it would have if the benchwarmers in our community would join up. Oh well, some would rather sit on the sidelines and sound off about how they could do it better, all the while accomplishing little or nothing.
 
The 2nd Amend. does not Grant us Any Right, it protects us from the government taking away a God Given Right to Self Defence which includes but is not limited to Firearms. Any Firearms that would give us equal footing with our enemies, both forgine and domestic, are Protected by the 2nd Amend.
No Judge can inturpete what those Rights are because to inturpete would be to grant and as I've said, the Rights are God Given. Full Autos and even Crew Served Weapons are protected thru the 2nd Amend., many Patriots during the Revolution owned Cannons, which was their Right.
People have gotten so out of touch with what a "Right" is that they now think it's something given to them by the Constitution or the government. Rights are something you're born with, something that you have already, all that the Constitution does is protect us from the government taking those Rights.
 
Tooltimey, are you a member of the NRA?

I will assume you are not, since you started this thread with a statement from the GOA that tried to excuse itself for not getting involved in the Katrina gun confiscations. A rather inept excuse, as I pointed out.

Have you read the entire decision in Parker v. D.C.? Do you understand the logic the Court used to go from military pattern weapons (as the Miller Court seemed to imply) to personal handguns and self-defense? Do you understand the political ramifications of what the Court said?

Allow me to clarify.

Under the Miller decision, the only firearms that are (probably) protected under the 2A are those firearms that can be shown to have some connection to the efficiency of the militia.

Under that criteria, it can be argued that MBR's (Main Battle Rifles) and select fire intermediate power carbines (assault rifles) are protected. But you cannot argue that shotguns, hunting rifles and most handguns are similarly protected, because they are not conducive to the efficiency of the militia. This is almost always read as these other firearms are not in common usage by the military - our military!

If that was all there was to it, then sooner or later, someone would find a way to make standing and bring this to the Supreme Court. Then you have to somehow get this Court to grant cert on such a case. How well has that worked in the last 70 years?

Now add into this mix, the expanded powers of the Feds under the Commerce Clause. Also add into this the fact that the majority of the population no longer has experience with firearms in general, and you have a tremendous force to overturn.

These are the pragmatic facts of the day. You are simply not going to turn this behemoth 180 degrees on a dime, no matter how much you rant and rave that it's a violation of your rights.

Regardless of that, we are making headway. We are nudging things onto a new course. We simply have to be aware that if we nudge too hard, there will be political and popular backlash that could undue everything that has been achieved so far.

Now enter Parker.

The Court in Parker not only said what I did, above, about the Miller decision, it went further. The Court laid out the logic, step by step, where we see that the Miller court was too narrow. Where it should have also included all of the firearms we enjoy today, including all handguns. Specifically handguns, because self-defense itself was part and parcel of the RKBA. The implications of Parker are that any complete ban on any specific subset of firearms is a violation of the 2A.

Do you now see the implications of this reasoning? Particularly if the Supreme Court grants cert and upholds the Circuit Courts decision?

Let me spell it out to you. If Heller (was Parker) is upheld, Title 18 section 922(o) USC will fall. It is an easy argument to make that 922(o) is a complete ban on a subset of arms that are specificly protected by Miller if all we go by, is that one decision. But the SCOTUS would never hear such a case by itself. It must first be goaded into taking on Heller, coming out with a favorable decision there.

And just where is the NRA in all of this? It's being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the fray. The NRA doesn't want to see this. It fears what the Court will say. It has always feared what the Court will say. So it must be dragged, against its will, into the fray... But once there, it will fight. It will have no other choice.

The NRA will put out PR releases that it is "responsible" for all these successes, just like it did with the Katrina confiscations. It really isn't, but I can and will let them have that little point (as did the SAF), if we can get this 800lb gorilla into play.

All of this is going to take time. Probably a lot of time. A lot of cases to set the groundwork. It took 60 years to get to the point where we have started taking back our right to keep and bear arms. It is progressing, even if it is too slow for some of you.

But you, want what you want, and you want it now. King Baby Syndrome.
 
Ahh, but the Military DOES use handguns, shotguns and scoped bolt action rifles so by default those would also be protected by the 2nd Amend. along with the battle rifles and assualt rifles.
 
Yes Frank, they do. However, it can be argued that only certain types of those would qualify. Would my Kel-Tec P11 qualify? How about my Argentine Mauser? Or that double-barrel?

Under Miller alone, they don't.
 
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