I think I almost blew up my shotgun today *Fired out of battery*-Pix-

L

Lavid2002

New member
So I was at the range today shooting my Baikal EAA semi-auto 12 ga. I had a couple old rusty (I had since cleaned off the rust with steel whool, it was still tarnished though) 12 ga hunting loads from duck hunting season of 09. I had a new shooter there. He was shooting target loads and I gave him a duck load to pop in and try out to get a feel for a shot shell that had some bite to it. He popped it in and I hear a kaboom. He said "I think we had a misfire" I thought he was joking because it obviously went off. He showed me the gun and I found this sucker stuck inside the gun with the bolt closed on it....
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Heres what I think happened. I was not shooting the gun I can only piece together what may have happened before the shot..


*Even though I did clean the rust off the shotshell, there may have still been enough to keep the bolt from completely into battery (you know the rust hanging up on the rim of the chamber)

*When the gun was fired the pressure sent the shot out of the barrel, and blew a hole in the side of the hull because the bolt wasnt fully into battery.

*The bolt was CLOSED that means there wasnt enough pressure to cycle the action and have it hold open....and that means a lot of pressure escaped from the breech.

*There was unburnt powder everywhere, which means the hole happened fairly quickly in the process and blew powder everywhere before the pressure could build up the charge and fully ignite the powder.


----I know on some platforms like the AR15 firing out of battery can blow up a rifle there was no damage to the shotgun and it performed flawlessly the rest of the day.



WHAT SAY YE?

-Dave
 
A friend of mine has a Remington shell that looks pretty much like that. It wasn't corroded, but kind of blew out and "melted" pretty much like yours. He says he was shooting at a duck and has absolutely no idea what happened. He was shooting a 12 ga Remington 11-87.
 
I have had old shells that were soaked in water before, they were fired and it made a floof sound. When ejected, the shell was on fire and melting... I still have it on my desk. It didnt blow out like this though. Granted, IIII fired it. And it was from a pump not a semi.
 
The shell failure is consistent with an out of battery firing. Have you had a chance to check out the gun? Is the firing pin still free-floating, are the disconnector and sear assemblies still functional? A frozen firing pin or disconnector/sear failure can cause a slam fire in a typical auto-loader.

What makes you think the bolt was closed when the incident occurred? You said "He popped it in and I hear a kaboom" It may have been an out of battery slam-fire. Or, do you mean the bolt was past the ejection port but was not locked?

Your "*The bolt was CLOSED that means there wasnt enough pressure to cycle the action and have it hold open....and that means a lot of pressure escaped from the breech." may be a misinterpretation of the event. I suspect the remains of the hull were found in the shell elevator void (below the closed bolt). There may have been adequate pressure to cycle the bolt fully to the rear. The typical semi-auto holds the bolt open only when the magazine is empty. Having the deformed hull in the elevator area, there's a high probability that it falsely signaled a loaded mag. If that was the situation, then the bolt closure was normal and not the result of low pressure.
 
No its a factory load...


I know it wasnt a problem with a slam fire or sear or anything like that. This round was loaded by itself. He put it in the breech, closed the bolt manually, and this was the ONLY ROUND in this gun. I threw him a clay for ****s and giggle and he shot at it. It wasnt a slam fire.


The bolt wasnt CLOSED per se, just closed on the hull. Also, the hull wasnt in the dog area, I dont think the bolt moved rearward at all or else it would have locked back.
 
From your expanded description, it clearly wasn't a slam-fire situation. It seems to have been a out-of-battery discharge due to a disconnector failure. Was the gun loaded via the mag or via the ejection port? Unlike most modern shotguns that can be singly loaded via the ejection port, the EAA Baikal MP 153 instruction manual addresses magazine loading only (like early US made auto-loaders). Loading as per the instructions is cumbersome at best. Who knows what happens if you load via the port (R-1100 style) instead of the mag.
 
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You didn't mention making sure the bore was clear of obstructions after this round was fired. I hope you did check it, and just forgot to mention it. With any shotgun round that sounds funny or doesn't seem to function properly, checking the bore before firing another round ought to be pretty much a reflex action. Otherwise you risk blowing the barrel out on a wad stuck in the bore. I've seen it done...

Glad no one was hurt and the gun is OK.

lpl
 
I took the whole gun apart and inspected everything. The bore was full of unburnt powder flakes. It was soooo dirty.


Also, yes this gun was loaded from the breech single shot NOT from the magazine. I wonder why they dont advise that. *and dont say this* hahaha

I seriously dont see a difference....
 
I think that breech loaded rounds need to have the bolt "driven home" to assure it is not only closed but also locked...

I cost a buddy a real nice buck... we had hunted in a rain the night before and I went and de-watered all the firearms... He had his BAR in .300 wm. When I was through, I reloaded the mag and cycled the first round as that is how he kept it. I gently hand cycled the first round. When he put the crosshairs on the deer he pulled the trigger and not even a click. I guess he shoulda told me to let the force of the bolt spring drive it into battery... Had it gone far enuff to fire and not locked up, I could have been responsible for, at least, a blown up rifle and at worst, a severe injury or worse.

I think a high quality gun is less likely to go into fire capable position with out action lock up than a lesser well made fire arm... Just the tolerance differences alone there.
Brent
 
I understand the premise of letting the bolt drive home with full force so it goes fully into battery, but putting one in the breech and pressing the bolt release is the same as loading one from the magazine. They both ride home with full force...:confused:
 
Yes! That is supposed to be fine... Here in lies the crux.
If he hit the action release to finish the loading operation, than your gun failed in one way or other. If it did not go off until he pulled the trigger on a closed action, it failed to lock up. No it doesn't have to blow back and lock open with a mis fired shell... first is the reduced blow back pressure as the shell wasn't fully contained and as the deformed shell will not slide back easily, it will greatly reduce the rearward motion and thus may not make it back to the lock up point that occurs with a properly functioning empty gun...

IMHO, the gun needs extreme scrutiny in operational integrity, either by you or a qualified smith. If it were mine I would really question the safe operation of said gun... If mine did this, even with a severely rusty *brass*, I wouldn't fire it again until I had "had my way" with her!
Brent
 
I just ripped it apart and gave it the look down before this. It worked flawlessly for me in duck season and since then for target shooting. I really think the 2 factors that played a part in this are
*New shooter
*Old rusty shell


Genuinely.... Even after this I can honestly say I have lost no confidence in the gun....does that seem weird?
 
detonation. Shell was in chamber fully, trigger was pulled, Primer is hit-fires powder has been contaminated by water. Powder partially burns, enough to start the action cycling. balance of powder detonates as shell is partly ejected. Bad shell, gun operated as designed. The lesson is do not use contaminated ammo.
 
You are assuming the extractor is spring loaded, like a R-1100 and most modern shotguns, allowing it to engage a shell from below or the front of the bolt. This may not be the case. The bolt face design may receive the shell rim when presented from below but not from end on. I downloaded the manual, but the exploded parts view is jumbled, so I can't tell what's going on with the bolt face.

Also, there's a reference about making sure that your get the bolt's lock key installed properly during assembly. That leads me to believe that the lock key can be installed improperly -- what happens then?

No matter what the peculiarities of the model may be, the disconnector should always prevent out-of-battery firing.
 
I ain't no gun smith, but it sounds like loading through the ejection port was part of the cause.

I have noticed on many guns that when I put the rounds directly in the chamber they take extra oomph like Brent said. I usually note that the ejectors don't hook over, it takes more to push them over. When the round comes from below the rim kinda slides or pivots unders the extractor(s).

If possible, on rifles, I try to push the round into the mag kinda M1 style. My shotguns I stick one in the tube an cycle it.

Not familiar with the posters type of gun, just my opinion in general .
 
The only way I can think of installing the bolt key improperly is doing it backwards (You would have to be a dumbass)

That would enable it to slide out of the gun, meaning the locking lug wouldn't engage....or STAY engaged for that matter. You would have to be pretty stupid to install that backwards though : |



Also, The extractor IS spring loaded. Again, I see no problem with loading from the breech it easily clicks over the rim of the shotshell.
 
The bolt key warning had to do with with its relationship to the firing pin spring, not being backwards.

Perhaps we've been following a out-of-battery red herring and baltz526's contaminated ammo explanation is on the mark.
 
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