I seem to have a problem.

N

Netzapper

New member
Here it is: I'm looking for a gun-owners organization that doesn't support the Republican party. Yeah, you heard me right. Doesn't.

I'm a Libertarian, and a very eclectic one at that (is there any other sort?). I find the top leadership of the GOP right now to be approximately on par with FDR in terms of destroying the constitutional republic I was raised to love. I don't give a flying Philadelphia flip if they're "making the world safe for democracy", I think they're destroying the one we have here.

So, as a result, I can't abide the idea of giving money to the NRA, which gave a huge chunk of money to the GOP.

I don't mind money given to individual campaigns of Republicans who remember what they party stood for, but I'm looking for a more, um, discerning organization.

Does such a thing exist?
 
Furthermore, I personally believe that the government has a responsibility to help those who have need in our society (well, my views are more complex than that, but that's neither here nor there). I would however like to see this country adopt a system more similar to European countries, in which only citizens are granted welfare, unemployment, etc.
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I gladly pay state taxes so that ER visits are subsidized
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:barf:
 
Unfortunately most people regardless of what they say, are really uncomfortable with the idea of a free society that our founders built. They really don't want to be responsible or self-reliant, it takes too much effort.
 
Okay, here it is, if you'd like the complex side of things (I told you I was eclectic):

Welfare, subsidized ER visits, unemployment, etc. are necessary for a society of our size to continue without constant drag on the bottom. So is free education. So are roads. So are about a zillion other things.

Overall, I think that local, private charities are best designed to handle these problems. However, I also think that charities wind up getting so absolutely fractured and splintered that it's difficult to actually get anything done with them.

Thus, local and state government provide an expedient for distributing these funds in an equitable and, more importantly, *unified* way.

I support line-item taxes.

Essentially, I get my tax forms in the mail. Instead of the standard "You owe us $X.YZ. Pay up, sucka," there's an itemized list of the various programs that will get my tax dollars, how much my "share" is, and what percentage of their request last year was filled.

I then go through, total up all the programs I'm willing to support, and send in that amount. I also pay a small "slush" tax, which goes toward bootstrapping *new* programs. If I don't like *any* of the programs, am hard up currently, or just generally a curmudgeon, I don't have to pay a damn thing except for the slush tax. Yeah, that means I can go for years without paying any real taxes, but it also means that both the PEOPLE and GOVERNMENT are accountable for the state of the world.

If you aren't willing to contribute $0.35 for your state police, chances are you don't deserve to be safe. If you can't chip in $2.50 on highway improvement, don't throw a fit about the potholes. If you don't care about people dying of influenza, can't be bothered about advancement of the arts, or think a new dog-catcher's van is needed, then don't fund those things.

If a program doesn't meet its funding requirements, it either changes form or it dies... the people have spoken. This is no different from cutting funding on the legislative level. However, it does give the people a veto on the stupidity of politicians.

True, there're probably going to be a couple hundred items on the list. However, they currently make tax software... there's actually free tax software out there that's pretty decent. It'd take me all of an afternoon to write a piece of soft that would give you click-boxes and tabulate your totals for you. If you can sit through an online personality test, you can do your taxes. Or, if you're completely lazy, either pay nothing (except "slush") or pay everything.

The silent form of welfare that nobody ever seems to complain about is the billion or so folks who get my tax dollars to shuffle papers all over all day.

The problem is that, like many radical Libertarian approaches to government, this requires that people be both mature and sophisticated. I know this is beyond the current state of the world, and in the meantime I'd prefer that people not be starving on my streets. So, yes, I support "handouts" as a stopgap for people getting a little smarter and taking responsibility for the place that they live.
 
stevelyn: I have an aesthetic problem with people starving on the street out in front of my house. It doesn't look pretty, and so I'd like to do something to help them. Giving them my last two bucks doesn't help them in the least. However, if I find enough like-minded people we can at least provide enough assistance that those who are capable of contributing to society can rise up from where they are. I don't mourn the folks who, having been offered my hand, try to steal my wallet... they can starve, and I won't mind in the least.

Government is my linking device for finding those like-minded people. That's what it's always been: "Hey, I can't afford to defend this city myself, let's make a committee that finds people who'll help."
 
I have an aesthetic problem with people starving on the street out in front of my house. It doesn't look pretty, and so I'd like to do something to help them.

So what you propose to do to help them is to put a gun to someone else's head and demand that they hand over their money to help you solve your "aesthetic" problem?

Give me a break.

One of the main reasons people aren't "mature and sophisticated" these days is because the government muscled its way in to the charity business and destroyed the sense of community service and self-reliance that used to be the basis of making sure people didn't starve.
 
mvpel: Did you miss my entire line item-tax post? That's on the state and local level. The Federal government doesn't need such a thing, becuase every American with a copy of the Constitution should already know the complete list of Federal programs that are legally allowed.

I agree with you that the Federal government has no place in charity. In fact, the exact list of things the Federal government has a responsibility and right to do is in the Constitution. I just don't think that suddenly slashing all of the extant programs with no recourse is likely to do anything but cause riots, death, and general unpleasantness.

Anyway, I personally find it incredibly offensive that a gun is held to my head demanding money for perpetual wars that do not a damn thing for my country's safety, in complete violation of national sovereignty, logic, and international law (not that I think we're bound by that law, or that it supercedes our interests, but it's smart to keep on good terms with other nations on the planet). But, please note, that I would gladly give my whole bank balance right now for our military to clean up the current mess, and develop (and execute) an exit plan. I support our troops, and am quite glad that they are willing to do a job I'm afraid to. I just don't think they ought to have been sent anywhere in the first place.

This has strayed significantly from gun-related topics.

If anybody would like to continue this debate with me, you can either PM me, or email me at "netzapper [at] technoculture [dot] org".

Anyone participating in private debate has my permission to publish any of my writings in those private discussions, in any medium and format whatsoever, in whole, in any location they wish. This does not preclude your fair use rights to those writings in any way, of course.
 
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Gun Owners of America seems to be guns and guns only. I would read up on it more, but my Grandpa passes me their news letter and thats all they go for. Seems they hit both sides when they are wrong..

I might add though Netzapper, that you won't find many politicians that are pro-gun rights that arn't Republicans. If someone does know of a true Libertarian gun activist, let me know.
 
As a libertarian (not affiliated with the party), I think you sound much more like a justified socialist.

So, yes, I support "handouts" as a stopgap for people getting a little smarter and taking responsibility for the place that they live.
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...goes completely against the libertarian ideal. :(
 
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I think it might be important to remember here that the average Joe/Jane Citizen is as dumb as a box of sand and couldn't give a rat's behind about what the government does or doesn't do, so long as they get to keep their house, hold a job, have food on the table and some money left over for a few nice things like vacations, etc.

Sadly, our elected leaders are well aware of this, and as a result, we have been sorely taken advantage of as a people by larger and more powerful forces (big corporations, etc.)

IMHO, education is the answer, and the personal responsibility to stay informed of what is going on in the community, state, country, and world. Big government, as ruled by big corporations, likes the citizenry to be dumb...that way, it's easier to herd the sheeple where they want them to go...
 
I'm going to agree with Wraith on this one

Welfare, subsidized ER visits, unemployment, etc
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That sounds more like the Democratic party line, and very anti-Libertarian.

I'll point out that as a Libertarian I support the NRA. I've never seen any reason not to, as I don't see them supporting the infringement of any other rights I believe in. They've given high ratings to pro-gun Dems and have had anti-gun Republicans on thier F list.
 
I seem to have a problem.
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Sounds like the only problem you have is lack of direction.

Just check out the various groups and see where their funds go and where their funds come from.


I'm not really the best source - I gave up giving to any of the pro gun organizations a few years back. I'll only re-up with the NRA if a Democrat gets in office in 2008 ,,and only as a means of tweaking the Democratic snout.

Matter of fact,,,with the 2 exceptions of Am Vets and Toys for Tots my wife and I don't contribute to nutthin' no more.
 
Netzapper,

If you knew the Libertarian platform, you would realize that Libertarians encourage the use of private charities to help those in need. Private charities did the job just fine before govt stuck its nose into the business.
The difference between private charities and govt is that w/ private charities aren't a bottomless money pit and you are evenually going to have to get off your ass an do something to improve your lot in life. Govt will continue to steal from us in the form of taxes to reward non-production.
If you also consider that a libertarian minded govt would cut off the foreign aid, pull troops back from overseas posts and stop chasing phantom WMDs in foreign lands, there would be more money to help with fixing immediate problems here at home.
 
I have an aesthetic problem with people starving on the street out in front of my house. It doesn't look pretty, and so I'd like to do something to help them. Giving them my last two bucks doesn't help them in the least. However, if I find enough like-minded people we can at least provide enough assistance that those who are capable of contributing to society can rise up from where they are.
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There has never been a working Socialistic society of any but the smallest scale. There are simply too many people who are stupid or lazy who will never have meaningful employment. Raising taxes to "help them out", doesn't... it just creates more of them. Even if you had your idyllic Utopia, you run into a basic problem that there sre simply not enough people who can afford to pay the taxes to take care of all the pwople who "need help". And the better "help" the lower class gets, the more people will choose to take the easy route instead of working. And as taxes go up, more and more of the employed become unemployed or destitute as their money is taken from them. This is a simple fact that all the feelgoodism in the world has never been able to counteract.

If you have an "aesthetic problem" with bums in your front yard, turn a hose on them. They'll find another yard to haunt. But do not come to me with your hand out for my wallet. I work hard for what I have, and I simply cannot afford to pay more to take care of the unending masses who are holding their hands out. Even if I make "too much" money, who's to say I'll still be making it in six years, or six months? I need to save and invest for my own retirement... there sure as hell isn't going to be a pension or any kind of Social Security for me. I'll take responsibility for keeping myself off of the dole. All I ask of others is that they do the same... take care of themselves.
 
The income tax gave the feds all the money and all the power. You can't change that without changing the income tax, possibly a drastic reduction in rates and what is expected of the feds. Personally I think the money should percolate up, not down; collected mostly at the local level or on genuine interstate or international commerce.
 
Here it is: I'm looking for a gun-owners organization that doesn't support the Republican party. Yeah, you heard me right. Doesn't.
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A discerning organization that's pro-gun and dosen't support the republican part? Perhaps this group can help you. I would imagine very few of there member if any at all are republicans. www.pinkpistols.org
 
netzapper- honestly, I don't think you sound like much of a libertarian. Maybe you should find a gun organization that supports the Democratic party.
 
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