I Really Need Help Against Anti's

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WETSU

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My wife and I will be going to a dinner party this weekend at friends. There will be a mix of people there. Invariably the discussion turns to politics, and often crime, and then gun control.

My problem is this. I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd. I believe that not only is it my right to be armed but my responsibility to society. I can usually debate well, and win 9 out of 10 2nd ammendment discussions. The one I stumble on is when someone says: "So, if I carry your argument to it's conclusion, do you think everyone has the right to own their own nuclear device?" This has to do with our founders not realizing the advancements that would come in armaments etc. So, where do you draw the line? No, I don't think individuals should have thermonukes, but how about a Harrier? An A-1 Abrams? If the guy has the money should he be able to have one? How about a Dragon, or AT-4, maybe just a LAWs rocket. Handgrenades? I KNOW that some pointy headed opponent will raise that issue, if I agree with him on the stupid nuke comment, he will say "How about a Bazooka?" etc. You get the idea. So to what degree do individuals have a right to arm themselve? Please help me beat these whiners into submission.
 
Americans have the right to protect themselves from assault by felons.

Protection from attacks by armies is provided for by our military.

If as an American Rifleman, my country requires me to protect and serve our Nation, using more than common Militia arms, then my innate responsibility and experience with small arms makes me a better citizen/warrior.
I will volunteer to help in the defence of our country and Constitution.

I do not expect the abilty to drive a car gives me the right to pilot the space shuttle, nor do i expect the right to own a rifle gives me the right to command a weapon of global annihilation.

Issue my trained unit a OCSW, and that bridge over there, will not be crossed by any enemy.

dZ
 
The Second Amendment relates to the militia. If you read the militia laws which existed in all 13 states at the time the Constitution was written and adopted, they REQUIRED all male citizens netween the ages 0f 16 and 60 tobe members of the militia and to buy and posses military infantry arms and specjfied ammounts of ammunition.
These weapons and ammunition had to be taken to musters where they were inspected by state officals. Failutre to be in compliance with the law resulted in fines and/or imprispnment. Only military types of weapons would pass muster. Shptguns (called fowling pieces in the laws were not allowed.
There were also militia cavalry units whose members were required to posses swords, pistols and in somr cases also had to have a carbine.
There were also militia artillery units which were organized into field artillery batteries which had four to six cannons and all required suppprting equipment.
Therefore, the Second Amendment protects all of these types of military werapons. If militia laws were enforced to day. the equivalent weapons they would require required would include .223 and .308 selective fire rifles, light machine guns, pistols in calibers from 9mm to .45ACP. military swords, and artillery guns and equipment.
Do not be fooled by the anti-gun argument that "the National Guard is the militia". The National Guard did not exist until after 1900. Nor has the US Supreme Court ever rullrd that the Ntional Guard is the militia. If any one tells you that it has, just ask them to cite the specific Supreme Court decsion.
 
Further elucidating upon Hard Ball's comment:

The National Guard is now annexed to the Federal military, is not independent of the federal military and can not be construed as the state militia.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Okay, hardball and DC, I understand where you are coming from on the militia thing. So, if I understand correctly, if a guy wants to or group of guys wants to and they have the money, they could field a MRLS, or maybe a battery of SAMs? Granted these are developed with gov't money and maybe manufacturers would not sell them, but there are plenty who would if it was an open market. Is this what you are saying? Today's self propelled 155mm howitzer is yesterday's horsedrawn smoothbore cannon. Is this correct thinking on my part? Do you think that's too much firepower for one person to have? See what happens dammit, I start using the anti's own arguments. "Nobody NEEDS to have a howitzer- nobody NEEDS to have a semiauto with 30 rd. mag, nobody NEEDS to have a .22 capable of firing more than one shot... etc. Help!
 
Peace Hard Ball,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hard Ball:
The Second Amendment relates to the militia.[/quote]

No, it does not. The Second Amendment is an enumeration of one of my God-given, unalienable Rights. Being a member of the Unorganized Militia does not grant a Right to Self-defense, nor does lack of membership in a militia strip one of that Right.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
If you read the militia laws which existed in all 13 states at the time the Constitution was written and adopted, they REQUIRED all male citizens netween the ages 0f 16 and 60 tobe members of the militia and to buy and posses military infantry arms and specjfied ammounts of ammunition.
[/quote]

Most people don't know that there is a federal law which mandates all males (of the appropriate age) as members of the Unorganized Militia.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
There were also militia artillery units which were organized into field artillery batteries which had four to six cannons and all required supporting equipment.
[/quote]

Imagine the foaming and spazzing if Unorganized Militia members were wheeling around field howizers.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Therefore, the Second Amendment protects all of these types of military weapons.[/quote]


Right conclusion, flawed premises.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Do not be fooled by the anti-gun argument that "the National Guard is the militia". The National Guard did not exist until after 1900. Nor has the US Supreme Court ever ruled that the Ntional Guard is the militia. If any one tells you that it has, just ask them to cite the specific Supreme Court decision.
[/quote]

As stated above, the federal law specifically states that the NG and the UM are wholly separate entities.

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James R. McClure Jr.
Sir Knight of Columbus
Democrat candidate for Indiana's Ninth congressional district
 
First, the Second amendment specifically refers to "arms", a term which has from antiquity refered to weapons used by individuals, such as might be issued to troops. In ancient times, swords, maces, bows, but not siege engines such as balista. Today, small arms such as handguns and rifles; Even hand grenades would be pushing it. Nuclear weapons will only become "arms" on the day the U.S. military starts issuing each grunt a tactical nuke on completion of boot camp.

Second, from a moral perspective there is a HUGE difference between the biggest gun on the market, or even those incredible WWII battleship guns, and the smallest nuke: You can't AIM a nuke! It's impossible to morally wield a weapon when you can't determine who it will and will not hit! Whereas you certainly can determine who you hit with a gun, so guns can be used in a moral fashion. And so the government has to be restricted to punishing their IMmoral use. To do otherwise would be akin to banning typewriters because they can be used to write extortion notes.


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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
Well, when I think of "bear arms" I think in terms of "man-portable." So, do I think bazookas, mortars, grenades, etc. are covered by the 2nd? Why yes, as a matter of fact, I do.

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
 
if you want to have a loaded quiver of historical background on the second and the militia:
http://www.wetworx.com/report.html
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms

REPORT

of the

SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION

of the

UNITED STATES SENATE

NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS

Second Session

February 1982

History: Second Amendment Right to "Keep and Bear Arms"

The right to keep and bear arms as a part of English and American law antedates not only the Constitution, but also the discovery of firearms. Under the laws of Alfred the Great, whose
reign began in 872 A.D., all English citizens from the nobility to the peasants were obliged to privately purchase weapons and be available for military duty. 1 This was in sharp contrast
to the feudal system as it evolved in Europe, under which armament and military duties were concentrated in the nobility. The body of armed citizens were known as the "fyrd".

While a great many of the Saxon rights were abridged following the Norman conquest, the right and duty of arms possession was retained. Under the Assize of Arms of 1181, "the
whole community of freemen" between the ages of 15 and 40 were required by law to possess certain arms, which were arranged in proportion to their possessions. 2 They were
required twice a year to demonstrate to Royal officials that they were appropriately armed. In 1253, another Assize of Arms expanded the duty of armament to include not only freemen,
but also villeins, who were the English equivalent of serfs. Now all "citizens, burgesses, free tenants, villeins and others from 15 to 60 years of age" were obligated to be armed. 3 While
on the Continent the villeins were regarded as little more than animals hungering for rebellion, the English legal system not only permitted, but affirmatively required them, to be armed.

The thirteenth century saw further definitions of this right as the long bow, a formidable armor-piercing weapon, became increasingly the mainstay of British national policy. In 1285,
Edward I commanded that all persons comply with the earlier Assizes and added that "anyone else who can afford them shall keep bows and arrows." 4 The right of armament was
subject only to narrow limitations. In 1279, it was ordered that those appearing in Parliament or other public assemblies "shall come without all force and armor, well and peaceably".
5 In 1328, the statute of Northampton ordered that no one use their arms in "affray of the peace, nor to go nor ride armed by day or by night in fairs, markets, nor in the presence of
the justices or other ministers." 6 English courts construed this ban consistently with the general right of private armament as applying only to wearing of arms "accompanied with
such circumstances as are apt to terrify the people." 7 In 1369, the King ordered that the sheriffs of London require all citizens "at leisure time on holidays" to "use in their
recreation bowes and arrows" and to stop all other games which might distract them from this practice. 8

The Tudor kings experimented with limits upon specialized weapons — mainly crossbows and the then-new firearms. These measures were not intended to disarm the citizenry, but on
the contrary, to prevent their being diverted from longbow practice by sport with other weapons which were considered less effective. Even these narrow measures were shortlived. In
1503, Henry VII limited shooting (but not possession) of crossbows to those with land worth 200 marks annual rental, but provided an exception for those who "shote owt of a howse
for the lawefull defens of the same". 9 In 1511, Henry VIII increased the property requirement to 300 marks. He also expanded the requirement of longbow ownership, requiring all
citizens to "use and exercyse shootyng in longbowes, and also have a bowe and arrowes contynually" in the house. 10 Fathers were required by law to purchase bows and arrows for
their sons between the age of 7 and 14 and to train them in longbow use.

In 1514 the ban on crossbows was extended to include firearms. 11 But in 1533, Henry reduced the property qualification to 100 pounds per year; in 1541 he limited it to possession of
small firearms ("of the length of one hole yard" for some firearms and "thre quarters of a yarde" for others)12and eventually he repealed the entire statute by proclamation.13 The
later Tudor monarchs continued the system and Elizabeth added to it by creating what came to be known as "train bands", selected portions of the citizenry chosen for special training.
These trained bands were distinguished from the "militia", which term was first used during the Spanish Armada crisis to designate the entire of the armed citizenry. 14

The militia continued to be a pivotal force in the English political system. The British historian Charles Oman considers the existence of the armed citizenry to be a major reason for the
moderation of monarchical rule in Great Britain; "More than once he [Henry VIII] had to restrain himself, when he discovered that the general feeling of his subjects was against
him... His 'gentlemen pensioners' and yeomen of the guard were but a handful, and bills or bows were in every farm and cottage". 15

When civil war broke out in 1642, the critical issue was whether the King or Parliament had the right to control the militia. 16 The aftermath of the civil war saw England in temporary
control of a military government, which repeated dissolved Parliament and authorized its officers to "search for, and seize all arms" owned by Catholics, opponents of the government,
"or any other person whom the commissioners had judged dangerous to the peace of this Commonwealth". 17

continues onward to the constitution...
 
also from the sub committee report of 1982:
Within our own century, the only occasion upon which the Second Amendment has reached the Supreme Court came in United States v. Miller. 63 There, a prosecution for carrying a
sawed off shotgun was dismissed before trial on Second Amendment grounds. In doing so, the court took no evidence as to the nature of the firearm or indeed any other factual matter.
The Supreme Court reversed on procedural grounds, holding that the trial court could not take judicial notice of the relationship between a firearm and the Second Amendment, but must
receive some manner of evidence. It did not formulate a test nor state precisely what relationship might be required. The court's statement that the amendment was adopted "to assure the
continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such [militia] forces" and "must be interpreted and applied with that end in view", when combined with the court's statement that
all constitutional sources "show plainly enough that the militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.... these men were expected to
appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time," 64 suggests that at the very least private ownership by a person capable of self defense and
using an ordinary privately owned firearm must be protected by the Second Amendment. What the Court did not do in Miller is even more striking: It did not suggest that the lower court
take evidence on whether Miller belonged to the National Guard or a similar group. The hearing was to be on the nature of the firearm, not on the nature of its use; nor is there a single
suggestion that National Guard status is relevant to the case.

The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms therefore, is a right of the individual citizen to privately possess and carry in a peaceful manner firearms and similar arms. Such an
"individual rights" interpretation is in full accord with the history of the right to keep and bear arms, as previously discussed. It is moreover in accord with contemporaneous statements
and formulations of the right by such founders of this nation as Thomas Jefferson and Samuel Adams, and accurately reflects the majority of the proposals which led up to the Bill of
Rights itself. A number of state constitutions, adopted prior to or contemporaneously with the federal Constitution and Bill of Rights, similarly provided for a right of the people to keep
and bear arms. If in fact this language creates a right protecting the states only, there might be a reason for it to be inserted in the federal Constitution but no reason for it to be inserted in
state constitutions. State bills of rights necessarily protect only against action by the state, and by definition a state cannot infringe its own rights; to attempt to protect a right belonging to
the state by inserting it in a limitation of the state's own powers would create an absurdity. The fact that the contemporaries of the framers did insert these words into several state
constitutions would indicate clearly that they viewed the right as belonging to the individual citizen, thereby making it a right which could be infringed either by state or federal
government and which must be protected against infringement by both.

Finally, the individual rights interpretation gives full meaning to the words chosen by the first Congress to reflect the right to keep and bear arms. The framers of the Bill of Rights
consistently used the words "right of the people" to reflect individual rights — as when these words were used to recognize the "right of the people" to peaceably assemble, and the "right
of the people" against unreasonable searches and seizures. They distinguished between the rights of the people and of the state in the Tenth Amendment. As discussed earlier, the
"militia" itself referred to a concept of a universally armed people, not to any specifically organized unit. When the framers referred to the equivalent of our National Guard, they
uniformly used the term "select militia" and distinguished this from "militia". Indeed, the debates over the Constitution constantly referred to the organized militia units as a threat to
freedom comparable to that of a standing army, and stressed that such organized units did not constituted, and indeed were philosophically opposed to, the concept of a militia.

That the National Guard is not the "Militia" referred to in the second amendment is even clearer today. Congress has organized the National Guard under its power to "raise and
support armies" and not its power to "Provide for the organizing, arming and disciplining the Militia". 65 This Congress chose to do in the interests of organizing reserve military
units which were not limited in deployment by the strictures of our power over the constitutional militia, which can be called forth only "to execute the laws of the Union, suppress
insurrections and repel invasions." The modern National Guard was specifically intended to avoid status as the constitutional militia, a distinction recognized by 10 U.S.C. Sec.
311(a).

The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major
commentator and court in the first half century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful
manner.
 
WETSU...... At the dinner party, serve mushrooms. Progunners get prepared deli mushrooms. Antigunners get field picked. Let fate decide. heh.
 
wetsu, I asked a similar question of the forum last week, and the consensus was that the 2nd relates to small arms, not including bombs.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>these men were expected to
appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time[/quote]
 
Okay. First. You will have to slap this clown with the fact that there are tactical weapons and ballistic weapons. A tactical weapon is a standard weapon of issue such as a firearm or even a bazooka. A ballistic weapon is a weapon of mass destruction such as a thermonuclear device or a biological component.

Second, We, here in the U.S., are already able to own a bazooka, Laws rocket, Abrams tank, etc. These are classified as destructive devices and there are special transfer fees and permits that are issued to citizens seeking to own these. Hollywood armorers come immediately to mind.

I think it was Dateline NBC that did a piece a while back that there are as many as seven fully operable Apache helicopters in private hands, most owned by the same company. When you see an Apahce in a movie, the chances are it was rented from this company and not from the military.

Third. Ask them this: Do you really feel that the same people who wrote the Supreme Law of the Land -- and kept a brace of working field pieces as lawn decorations -- meant to exempt cannon and other devices from their reading of the Second Amendment?

For a really fun time send them here http://www.bigjimsmgs.com . That is Big Jim's machine gun sanctuary.

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Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.


[This message has been edited by jimpeel (edited March 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by jimpeel (edited March 10, 2000).]
 
Just keep it simple.

Liberal guest: So, do you think that you are entitled to carry nukes?

You No. Nukes are not personal defensive weapons. They are International war devices. The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with the right to wage war against another coutry.

Liberal guest: What about a Harrier?

You A Harrier is also not a personal defensive device. Defending your home and your community with a Harrier is rather a silly concept, wouldn't you think?

Liberal guest: What about a bazooka, then?

You Tachnically speaking, a large, portable, personal weapon would be a defensive device, especially against tyrannical Government forces - so, the answer is yes, as much as you or even I may find it extreme. Ditto for a machinegun and a hand-granade (which are not exactly illegal to own as of yet) - [And at this point you let out a slight giggle]

Liberal guest: Did the Fathers know that the simple muskets for which they wrote the 2nd would develop into the M16s of today?

You: And did they know that simple newspapers for which they wrote the 1st would turn into magic image-showing and voice-carrying devices of today? It's all or nothing, darling. Pass the pickle, would you?

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Private gun ownership is the capital sin in the left's godless religion. Crime is merely a venial mistake.

Check out these gals: www.sas-aim.org
 
Brett, good points about the indiscriminate type of weapons. How about bulk explosives like c4, or blocks of TNT. Used improperly they cause harm to innocents, but harnessed correctly they do a tremendous amount of work. (including defensive uses) what about a man portable weapon that is extemely accurate like a wire guided AT missle? if I use it poorly, just like a firearm I could hit an innocent person (or 18 wheel semi!) But used accurately I could pick off a Bradly MICV or a cattle trailer pulling up to my church, at 500 yards. Once agin, where do I draw the line?
 
YES, it does give you that right. Tell 'em that. If they bring up what the founders knew or didn't know about what the future would hold, tell them the founders were not fools (there's a subtle implication there that they may not catch) and that the founders knew very well that weaponry had been advancing in sophistication for centuries and was likely to keep doing so. Basically, do they really think the founding fathers were so stupid that they thought that change, progress and innovation would grind to a halt within 50 years of writing the Constitution? Of course not.

Also bring up intent. The 2nd was not put there so that people would carry muskets as decorations. The intent was clearly that the militia be capable of fighting off foreign invaders or a tyrannical standing army. You simply can't do that in the modern world with a musket or even just a rifle very well. Thus the founders wouldn't have limited us to ineffective means to accomplish their goals.
 
Thanks for the replies. That helps shape my reponses somewhat, and gives me a some guidance. I think I know what I'm gonna say.
 
Wetsu, after going through the responses suggested by those above, you might also remind them that there are academic arguments and there are real-life arguments. And that their academic "carrying your position to the logical extreme" argument is about as realistic as you taking theirs to the extreme where screwdrivers and razor blades are illegal.

"Some ideas are so outrageous that they can only be embraced by intellectuals." George Orwell


Dick
 
If you need to keep liberals off balance there is another direction . If asked if a nuclear device should be allowed you say that it falls under the same heading of welfare families having more children . If you can't handle something you should not have it . As far as owning Nukes , well they own some as well as all of us . Of course the average guy is not trusted with the actual handling but owns them nevertheless . When someone starts to whine about welfare families having children they can't afford the topic quickly changes . Here you will pick up support that they don't realize . The average person knows that welfare families are the biggest supplier of gang members and druggies in this society . they are a problem to anyone . If people were more responsible in raising their children instead of just cranking them out these problems would not be as large and widespread as they are . This is also true with guns .No one forces them to own a gun but they sure don't want an unarmed policeman to respond to their problem .
There was a case here in Orange CA where a couple was held and the wife raped while the husband was held at knifepoint . If he had a gun his wife would have been spared this indignity . Ask the wives if they would rather be raped ( perhaps several times by several perps ) instead of her husband owning and being prepared to use a gun . Look them in the eyes when you ask . They will look down at their plate hoping someone says something to change the subject . Let us know how you make out .


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TOM SASS MEMBER AMERICAN LEGION MEMBER NRA MEMBER
 
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