I've been around rifles most of my life and am a passable shot with open site weapons--M-1, M-14 and M-16 in the Army, and in civilian life several .22LR bolt and pump rifles as well as AKs, ARs and military bolts like the Mauser and Mosin-Nagant. Now I'd like to get into long range target shooting--300yds to 100yds, and am finding that it's almost a different sport. So far it seems the rifle to get is either a Savage 10FP (low end) or a Remington 700 PSS (upper end). I want to go with .308 because of ammo availability and cost. I have found little to guide me on selecting scopes and other equipment, or steps to follow. The sniper pages offer some guidance, but what I've found seems to be hit and miss. Would any of you long-range experts out there be able to suggest some web pages, books, articles or other information sources on getting started. Any and all advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. W
I need some long range shooting advice
- Thread starter BlackJack
- Start date
Depends on what kind of shooting you want to do . . .
The Rem700 PSS is low-end of the scale when it comes to Long-range guns. Granted, the PSS is an excellent starter rifle but if you go to the IBRSA shoots, you'll see rigs there $5000 on up.
300 - 1000 yards. Go with a PSS and have it tuned up by Iron Brigade Armory. Even with a factory barrel, the PSS is capable of exceptional accuracy with the right ammo. The tune-up by IBA includes, chasing the threads and setting back the barrel. Recutting the chamber to match specs and truing the bolt to the receiver. The HS precision stock uses an aluminum bedding block for the action. IBA will also bed the action with Titanium Devcon so that the action and stock behave as one solid unit.
Optics is another whole ball of wax. First determine your budget, but keep in mind, you don't want to skimp on optics. You can't hit what you can't see. If really pressed for a budget, Tasco is a fair choice. But you should really look at Leupold, IOR Valdada, for midrange optics. Or Schmidt Bender, USOptics, or Nightforce on the high-end. On all my rigs, the scope cost more than the rifle itself.
The next to consider is accessories. Will you be using a benchrest or a bipod? The size of the scope you'll be using will determine if you will need a cheek pad to raise your weld. A good spotting scope is just as important as the rifle scope itself. It is easy to go over board.
Again start with the question on what type of shooting you want to do and go from there.
Here's a pic of my 1000 yard rig in .308 Win.
The Rem700 PSS is low-end of the scale when it comes to Long-range guns. Granted, the PSS is an excellent starter rifle but if you go to the IBRSA shoots, you'll see rigs there $5000 on up.
300 - 1000 yards. Go with a PSS and have it tuned up by Iron Brigade Armory. Even with a factory barrel, the PSS is capable of exceptional accuracy with the right ammo. The tune-up by IBA includes, chasing the threads and setting back the barrel. Recutting the chamber to match specs and truing the bolt to the receiver. The HS precision stock uses an aluminum bedding block for the action. IBA will also bed the action with Titanium Devcon so that the action and stock behave as one solid unit.
Optics is another whole ball of wax. First determine your budget, but keep in mind, you don't want to skimp on optics. You can't hit what you can't see. If really pressed for a budget, Tasco is a fair choice. But you should really look at Leupold, IOR Valdada, for midrange optics. Or Schmidt Bender, USOptics, or Nightforce on the high-end. On all my rigs, the scope cost more than the rifle itself.
The next to consider is accessories. Will you be using a benchrest or a bipod? The size of the scope you'll be using will determine if you will need a cheek pad to raise your weld. A good spotting scope is just as important as the rifle scope itself. It is easy to go over board.
Again start with the question on what type of shooting you want to do and go from there.
Here's a pic of my 1000 yard rig in .308 Win.
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Try:
http://www.precisionshooting.com/images/1000yd.jpg
Get the book and subscribe to the magazine. Lots of good information..
Giz
http://www.precisionshooting.com/images/1000yd.jpg
Get the book and subscribe to the magazine. Lots of good information..
Giz
MadScientist
New member
and I'm guessing that the availability of .308 ammo should have little to do with it, b/c if you're putting cheap .308 ammo through it(e.g. mil surplus or even $.50/rnd hunting ammo) you're going to have big groups. (at least this is my experience with .30-06 at 300yrds.)
BlackJack
Pop in at http://www.assaultweb.net and check out long range rifles. A lot of good infomation there to.
Just my opinion so no flames please, I am in NO WAY a professional and I just shoot the the challenge, guy
Sure you can start out with some $5000 plus state of the art thing but are you gonna justify it. A Savage 10FP I think would do you just fine to start with and heck you may love it. A Winchester Model 70 is what I shoot. A PSS or even and LTR would be great. You can check out http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com and they have some interesting rifles. I would give any of the above rifles a good look and see what fits your budget and thee are a lot of good scopes out there you won't have to hock the kids for also.
Next and a good piont made by Madscientist above is AMMO.
Sure I shoot surplus and I am sure a lot do. I use it in my M1A for on fun range days. I reload good stuff for the day I want to beat myself to death and cuss at myself cause I know someday I will be able to shoot better than the rifle is capable, I just hope I have enough years left
So ammo wise you are left with 2 choices, the store bought stuff or work up a load that works in your rifle.
Should you need stuff, Press, brass ect I would be happy to give you another 3 cents worth.
Good Luck
Karsten
Pop in at http://www.assaultweb.net and check out long range rifles. A lot of good infomation there to.
Just my opinion so no flames please, I am in NO WAY a professional and I just shoot the the challenge, guy
Sure you can start out with some $5000 plus state of the art thing but are you gonna justify it. A Savage 10FP I think would do you just fine to start with and heck you may love it. A Winchester Model 70 is what I shoot. A PSS or even and LTR would be great. You can check out http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com and they have some interesting rifles. I would give any of the above rifles a good look and see what fits your budget and thee are a lot of good scopes out there you won't have to hock the kids for also.
Next and a good piont made by Madscientist above is AMMO.
Sure I shoot surplus and I am sure a lot do. I use it in my M1A for on fun range days. I reload good stuff for the day I want to beat myself to death and cuss at myself cause I know someday I will be able to shoot better than the rifle is capable, I just hope I have enough years left
So ammo wise you are left with 2 choices, the store bought stuff or work up a load that works in your rifle.
Should you need stuff, Press, brass ect I would be happy to give you another 3 cents worth.
Good Luck
Karsten
No LTR!
All due respect Karsten, you do not want a LTR for 1000 yard shooting. LTR's are great for up to 600 yards, beyond that you are going to suffer with 6" less barrel. At least that is my understanding and I would appreciate if someone would correct me if I am wrong.
I have shot a 1000 yard matches twice with my REm 700 VS in .308. The only problem was with my Leupold 6.5-20x50 LRT scope I ran out of elevation. I held high and still shot pretty darn good. I just ordered an IOR 20 MOA angled base from http://www.snipercountry.com . If you are going to shoot long range, no matter what rifle or scope you get, you must get an angled base that gives you additional elevation. It is essential.
I don't recommend wasting all of your money away right now on an expensive gun. I would suggest buying a Rem 700 VS as it is the same as the 700 PSS with just a different stock. Then as you feel the need to upgrade, you have the all important action already and can build up from there. Like, I said, I have shot really well at long range with my VS and my handloaded 178 gr. A-Max and 175 gr. Sierra HPBT match. I have not had a chance to go to the 1000 yard shoot since I have put on that new IOR base, but when I do I will get back to you all.
One last note, I just ordered the HS precision PRT-25 stock with adjustable cheek weld and LOP. I can't wait for it to come in. Any feedback on this stock?
All due respect Karsten, you do not want a LTR for 1000 yard shooting. LTR's are great for up to 600 yards, beyond that you are going to suffer with 6" less barrel. At least that is my understanding and I would appreciate if someone would correct me if I am wrong.
I have shot a 1000 yard matches twice with my REm 700 VS in .308. The only problem was with my Leupold 6.5-20x50 LRT scope I ran out of elevation. I held high and still shot pretty darn good. I just ordered an IOR 20 MOA angled base from http://www.snipercountry.com . If you are going to shoot long range, no matter what rifle or scope you get, you must get an angled base that gives you additional elevation. It is essential.
I don't recommend wasting all of your money away right now on an expensive gun. I would suggest buying a Rem 700 VS as it is the same as the 700 PSS with just a different stock. Then as you feel the need to upgrade, you have the all important action already and can build up from there. Like, I said, I have shot really well at long range with my VS and my handloaded 178 gr. A-Max and 175 gr. Sierra HPBT match. I have not had a chance to go to the 1000 yard shoot since I have put on that new IOR base, but when I do I will get back to you all.
One last note, I just ordered the HS precision PRT-25 stock with adjustable cheek weld and LOP. I can't wait for it to come in. Any feedback on this stock?
That looks great Nuke Em, what is it?
That is a fine looking rifle, but let us know what we are looking at! It looks like possibly a Rem 700 with a HS precision adjustable stock and a Leupold 6.5-20 or 8.5-24 LRT scope with Leupold dual dove tail bases. Correct me if I am wrong.
That is a fine looking rifle, but let us know what we are looking at! It looks like possibly a Rem 700 with a HS precision adjustable stock and a Leupold 6.5-20 or 8.5-24 LRT scope with Leupold dual dove tail bases. Correct me if I am wrong.
I would highly recommend the book Ultimate Sniper prior to you purchasing a rifle/scope/accessories.
The book is packed cram full of knowledge... from caliber, rifle, scope & reticle combinations, to accessories, posistions & tactics.
Get the book, read up on things, ask some more questions on the BBs, then decide on your, what could be, one for life precision rifle.
Just my $.02
The book is packed cram full of knowledge... from caliber, rifle, scope & reticle combinations, to accessories, posistions & tactics.
Get the book, read up on things, ask some more questions on the BBs, then decide on your, what could be, one for life precision rifle.
Just my $.02
El Rojo,
No offence taken, I know and LTR won't get to a 1000 yds. But it would do a good job under 500. I don't have a range to shoot (or try to shoot) 1000 yards but I bet the hold over have to be 48 plus inches. As I said, I just shoot for fun and someday I will need and new rifle, cause I beat the other one, ya right....not in my life time. As long as we are posting pic, this is my baby
[Edited by Karsten on 04-29-2001 at 12:08 PM]
No offence taken, I know and LTR won't get to a 1000 yds. But it would do a good job under 500. I don't have a range to shoot (or try to shoot) 1000 yards but I bet the hold over have to be 48 plus inches. As I said, I just shoot for fun and someday I will need and new rifle, cause I beat the other one, ya right....not in my life time. As long as we are posting pic, this is my baby
[Edited by Karsten on 04-29-2001 at 12:08 PM]
I am in ways the luckiest man around.
I live only 30 minutes from a 1000 yard range that only about 10-20 regulars go to once a month. Some of these guys drive for 2-5 hours just to get to this place to shoot 1000 yards. The only bad thing is I am still in the PRK
! I can go about 30-40 past that 1000 yard range and shoot 200/300/600 highpower. If I just want to screw around and shoot, I go about 15 minutes and shoot as long, often, and for free as I want in the hills here. California would be heaven if there were no liberals running the government.
I knew I was probably going to get that wrong. I don't really know the difference between a Remington and the Winchester off hand. I knew as soon as I guessed Remington it would not be right. Oh well, that is how you live and learn. I knew I had the scope right though!
I live only 30 minutes from a 1000 yard range that only about 10-20 regulars go to once a month. Some of these guys drive for 2-5 hours just to get to this place to shoot 1000 yards. The only bad thing is I am still in the PRK
! I can go about 30-40 past that 1000 yard range and shoot 200/300/600 highpower. If I just want to screw around and shoot, I go about 15 minutes and shoot as long, often, and for free as I want in the hills here. California would be heaven if there were no liberals running the government.I knew I was probably going to get that wrong. I don't really know the difference between a Remington and the Winchester off hand. I knew as soon as I guessed Remington it would not be right. Oh well, that is how you live and learn. I knew I had the scope right though!
If you don't go with one of the Leupold Mk 4's, Leupold's LRT models or another brand of scope with extra elevation you will need tapered bases.(I use Baer's) A PSS in .308 or a Winchester Stealth is a great starter gun. (I know a lot of people like the Savages, but I like to tinker and there are'nt as many toys available for the Savage.)Have a smith tune the trigger, buy a case of 175 Fed GM, 175 Blackhills or 155 Fed GM (155's will get there, but 175's buck the wind better), spend as much on a scope and rings as you can afford and get a shooting buddy.(You need a spotter to tell you that the wind just changed and thats why your shot just moved 8" left, plus you'll learn more about wind and mirage by observing it while he shoots.)Don't scrimp on cleaning equipment. Get a bore guide, a one piece cleaning rod and a bunch of brass core bore brushes. Buy Michael Lau's book "The Military and Police Sniper" and John Plaster's book "The Ultimate Sniper". Check out http://www.snipercountry.com and read the "Good reading for newbies and old salts" section BEFORE posting quesitons.
Good luck and good shooting.
Good luck and good shooting.
You must ge an angled base.
No matter what scope you buy, I am telling you, you must get an angled base. Do not rely on the Leupold Scope to have enough elevation to reach 1000 yards. Mine did not and I had to buy the angled rings later on down the road. Do not waste your money, buy the angled base first. Trust me on this.
There is a 1000 yard range in the Cuyuma Valley and they shoot there every third Sunday of the month. If you are a PRKer e-mail me for the specifics. They are a great group of guys and gals there and they would be glad to have you.
No matter what scope you buy, I am telling you, you must get an angled base. Do not rely on the Leupold Scope to have enough elevation to reach 1000 yards. Mine did not and I had to buy the angled rings later on down the road. Do not waste your money, buy the angled base first. Trust me on this.
There is a 1000 yard range in the Cuyuma Valley and they shoot there every third Sunday of the month. If you are a PRKer e-mail me for the specifics. They are a great group of guys and gals there and they would be glad to have you.
Don't trust me, just do your own research. Call Leupold, ask about their 30mm long range models. Call Nightforce and ask them. Go to their websites and look at the available elevation adjustments. The U.S. Army does'nt use tapered bases on the M-24, with the Leupold Mk4-M3 they don't need them. So, don't "trust me", just check it out yourself.
tasco super sniper scopes have 140 minutes of elevation which is more than enough to go from 100 to 1000 yds with any reasonably level ring bases in existance ie base parrallel to bore height from centerline equal. i use lyman/unertyl outside adjusting scopes which have 90 min elevation and these are enough with out trick bases. the real deal is to get the long range scopesa with the extrs elevation necessary from the factory - not just the "normal" scopes