I need some education on 38 spec +P

L

lonegunman

New member
From looking at the websites for Federal, Remington, and Winchester, it appears to me that there is very little advantage (if any) to 38 +P compared to plain-old 38 special.

Velocity and energy for many of the rounds are identical.

So why is +P considered superior by so many people. It looks like it might be a little better, for some rounds, but not many.

Also, can anybody give me the chamber pressure values for 38 spec, 38 +P, and 357 mag?

The point of all this is, I am trying to decide on ammo for a S&W model 60, with a 2 and 1/8 inch barrel.
 
For defensive ammo, use ONLY +P's - Cor bon's are designed for defense. Your Mod. 60 has a steel frame, so occasional use is not a problem. If the recoil is too much with +P, put rubber grips from Pachmyar or Hogue.
 
You'll find the 38+p's pretty tolerable in the 60 2 1/8". I haven't tried .357's. I think 38's hover around 16,500 CUP and .357 begin about 22,500 if I am not mistaken. I was once interested in using the old Winchester Treasury load 110Gr Soft tip JHP in my Ti, called S&W and they advised against it as it was only proofed to about 21,500CUP- don't quote me thought, call them to confirm as it has been some time. The ammo manufacturers can tell you exactly as Winchester did. Good luck.
 
SAAMI specs re maximum peak pressure.
.38spec...........17,000
..38 spec +P....18,500
...357mag........35,000

Note these are PEAK pressures and have no direct bearing on bullet velocity or energy. Many factors can raise the PEAK pressure; such as faster burning powder, flash retardants and other things to raise load density, etc etc.

Sam
 
"Velocity and energy for many of the rounds are identical. "

If you compare two loads and find that this is the case, then there is no reason to shoot a higher pressure load which gives you no more velocity. You can look in any loading manual, at any caliber and you can find loads that generate less velocity with more pressure.

My advise; If you want to shoot the most potent load avialiable, shoot various loads through a chrono and use the one that produces the highest velocity. If you are concerned for some reason about recoil, then shoot various loads and shoot the one that is most comfortable. If you want overall best performance, I would shoot various loads and see which one is the most accurate or the one that shoots closest to your sights. You will never notice any significant increase in performance between an accuracy load (within reason) and the one labeled +P, on a living target IMO.
 
In .38 from a short barrel, we're often JUST short of getting up enough speed to reliably open a hollowpoint. So we start using every crazy trick in the book to get that last bit of "oomph" necessary. +P is one trick, in my case a .002" cylinder gap is another (even though I have to clean the cylinder face and rear of the barrel every 40ish rounds).

We also tend to advise 3" tubes over 2", when you can find 'em...the difference in concealability isn't all that much.
 
+P = marketing,,, for the most part

So why is +P considered superior by so many people.
Click to expand...
Because marketing hype is successful. The tendancy is to equate +P with "almost a magnum". In the grand scheme of things, +P has a relativly small value in determining the terminal effect of a bullet. It's a SAAMI designation for peak chamber pressure. This isn't to say it's useless information by any stretch (pun intended). It's a term like "expansion". Ask 1000 shooters what "expansion" means. My guess is everyone except a couple will say the same thing. What they really are thinking of is controlled expansion.

Think about this logicly for a second.(even though I think I misspelled it ;)) Since the bullet isn't gaining any appreciable velocity by the extra pressure,(you read the data on the ammo) where is it all going? Newton says: The other direction. Straight back against the recoil shield mostly. Since the gun tends to stay at rest (again, Newton says so), the gun tries to stay where it is. The result is a microscopic stretching of the frame. Steel (and/or any metal alloy or metal for that matter) isn't very elastic in that regard. At some point, the stretch doesn't go back.


Bottom line here is SAAMI pressure designations are a good guide for a gun mfg. They aren't the end all/be all for ammo mfg's when the terminal side if things is considered. They are nothing more than a piece of the puzzle.

And please, don't get me started on hollow points. ;)
 
What RAE says......plus.
+P is talkin about peak pressure. Has bearing re stress on gun but not on bullet performance.

Powder burn rate and total pressure make a big difference.

Example.. Identical bullets, cases, primers etc; same gun.

One load of a given powder gives 1,800 fps at 32,500 PEAK pressure.

Nuther load same componants cept different powder gives 1,460fps at 42,500 PEAK pressure.

Same bullet slower but Peak pressure 10,ooo HIGHER.

Sam
 
The ammo makers are terrified of being sued. So loads are kept below danger levels. Way below. The 9MM Federal +P+ loads designated "Law Enforcement Only" really are hot. By putting that on the box they limit liability if some yahoo puts these in an old clunker gun and blows himself up. "Hey, we market this ammo to police only. Why are you buying it and putting it in your old gun?"

With the .38 Special, there are so many weak old guns out there that they are afraid of the consequences of selling really hot ammo in this caliber. Knowing the quality of my guns, and accepting the responsibility for my actions, years ago I worked up some loads for various pistol calibers. My .38 Special load was a 110 grain JHP that clocked 1405 FPS from a standard S&W M10 with a 4" barrel. The primers looked fine and cases fell from the chambers with barely a nudge from the ejector rod.

BTW- My favorite .357 load is a 125 JHP at a tad over 1700 FPS from a 5" M27 (works just fine in my K frame M13, too) and in .38 Super I use 115 JHPs at 1525 FPS.
 
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