I Need a Rifel/Help

C

Charlie

Inactive
I know this is a great place to get advice, and I need to add a rifle to my supply of weapons.

I want to be able to return fire [if needed] up to about 400 yrds, and to be able to take game [if needed]. I would prefer a semi-auto asult type rifle. I need to stay in a budget of around $500 [outher needs you know]. My dealer has sugested a Ruger Mini 30 and I have put a deposite on one [stainless], but I
can change my mind.

I know Ruger has a good reputation for dependability, but I have read here some post
concerning it's accuracy. Also what do you think about the 7.62 round being enough to defend with [Deadly], and take large game?

Another concern is the availability of accessories and parts.

Thanks for allowing me to pick your brains on this.

Charlie




[This message has been edited by Charlie (edited June 17, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Charlie (edited June 17, 1999).]
 
You're not going to get a full-auto unless you submit to a background investigation roughly equivalent to that needed to obtain a Secret-level security clearance, and pay a $200 tax. Perhaps you meant semi-auto?

I would suggest an AK-47, unless you live in a state run by Socialists (e.g. California). Here in Colorado, one can pick up a new AK for less than $400. Parts and accessories are, for now, easy to find. 7.62x39 should work reasonably well at the range you're talking about, depending on the circumstances.

Another good choice would be a bolt-action .30-06.

Personally, I'm looking at a lever-action Marlin .45-70.

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"We are going to fight. We are going to be hurt.
But in the end, we will stand."
--Roland Deschain
 
Yes Coinneach I did mean semi-auto and I corrected my post.

You said the 7.62 should work resonably well, and that concerns me because I want to be able to get the job done when needed.

Thanks, Charlie
 
Given the stipulations that you made, Charlie, I'd say forget the 7.62 x 39 in any way, shape, or form. Oh, I have an SKS for my trunk gun, which I suppose could do all of that (for under $130.00, I might add...), but it's just not enough cartridge for 200 yd+ big-to-medium game shots.

For returning fire at distances beyond 80 yards, a bolt action will serve you well. The only consideration of importance in a rifle is its practical (and occasionally inherent) accuracy. While a repeater is desirable, the improvement strategically from a semi-auto to a bolt action is NEGLIGIBLE. One hit beats hell out of a magazine of misses, and a real rifleman doesn't shoot "to keep their heads down." Shoot, I think I've talked myself into buying another No. 4 Mk I ! (grin)
 
Considering your stated needs, the 7.62x39 cartridge is not going to work. You should go with a .308 Winchester caliber. The price you state puts you in bolt-action rifle territory, which is okay because a competent rifleman can do well with a bolt-action. Look for something used that has been taken care of. Many people trade in hunting rifles that have been barely used. Often, for the one price, a scope is included.
 
Trevor,

I was under the impression that the 7.63x39 is the same round as a 308.

I dont know ,and I wanted to ask about this anyway. Please advise

Charlie
 
Charlie:

I tend to agree with the other posts aginst using 7.62 X 39 cartridge. 7.62 X 39 cartridges are only half as powerful as a .308 WIN (7.62 X 51 NATO). 470 ft-lb for 7.62 X 39 versus 1080 ft-lbs of energy for .308 WIN at 400 yards. Moreover, AK-47 and SKS do not have sufficient accuracy to return fire out to 400 yards. For that range, they're good only for suppression fire.

7.62 X 39 cartridges are sufficient to incapacitate humans out to 500 yards, but as far as medium games go, forget taking them at ranges beyond 150 yards (200 yards with a scope).

Why not get a used Remington 7400 semi auto rifle in .308 WIN (7.62 X 51, 1000 ft-lb energy @ 400 yards)? You can get 10 rounds mags for them, install a scope (it comes with adjustable iron sights), and you can effectively take medium games AND return fire out to 400 yards that you specified. Besides, you can get US made FMJ ammos for much less than the expensive SP or HP hunting ammos. Furthermore, Remington 7400 looks totally, bonifiably, politically correct, but yet, they're deadlier than ARs or AKs at any ranges.

If you like something with large capacity mags, just get an AK and put a scope on it. Although sufficiently lethal for humans out to 500 yards, just forget taking out medium games over 150 yards (200 yds with a scope).

Ruger Mini-30 are fine, but you'll be limited to the 5 rounds mags you're supplied to, unless you want to use USA mags (junks), and remember, 7.62 X 39 cartridge power is anemic.

As with surplus guns like Lee Enfield (SMLE), they're very good guns, but the 40 some years old surplus ammos don't usually give consistent accuracy due to powder decomposition, which tend to vary the bullets' velocities. Furthermore, the sights of these surplus rifles are usually calibrated for a certain bullet weight and powder charge, so if you use ammos with different bullet weights and powder type/charge, you can't zero the rifle's elevation like an AR, AK, SKS, and other newer guns. You can always, however, install a scope or an after market adjustable iron sights, as the ones made by Lymann (?). I used to own a surplus .303 with such a sight, and it worked fine with HUNTING ammos (expensive). Surplus ammos, however, were often inconsistent, depending on the country and date they came from. Some shoot thight groups, some as big as 6", some shoot lower/higher than others. Old surplus ammos also tend to split close to the neck, automatically rendering your rifle innefective (happened to my budy's Enfield).


Hope this ramblin' helps. Sorry for the long post

Johannes

[This message has been edited by Johan762 (edited June 17, 1999).]
 
Jerry's Sports Center, a dealer only distributor, had Savage model 110 package guns complete with 3X9 scope (mounted and bore sighted) sling and swivels for under $350 in your choice of caliber. Your dealer will have their latest flier. I'd suggest either 7mm or 300 Win. mag..
I just bought an S&W model 1500 Deluxe in 7mm mag. for just the same purpose. I prefer the heavy calibers and the 1500 fit nicely in my S&W collection.

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
Charlie, 400 yds huh? Damn that's pretty far. Hitting a man sized target at that range ( you did say "return fire" right?) is extremely hard to do. Ask any of us here who have done any competitive (or military!) shooting. That takes a serious caliber, a good barrel, a crisp trigger and honest sights. You won't get any of those (except the caliber) on a new $500 rifle.

That means used is what you are after. I recommend you do get a used rifle. Take someone along who is very knowledeable or go to someone you trust. Then, practice regularly, learn about your rifle and our sport.

When you can hit a man sized target in any conditions, on demand, by all means let us know. And I hope you never have to "return fire."
 
Charlie:

The above posts answer your question well, so I will not needlessly repeat information. I will agree though that if you prefer a semi-auto, the Remington 7400 (in 30.06 or 308) is a good choice. I have seen K-Mart sell for this model less than $500 (with iron sights). The problem though is that this rifle does not have much in the way of an adjustable trigger.

In contrast, a Remingtom 700 with the trigger adjusted can serve your stated goal of accurate fire to 400 yards. For instance, yesterday I was at a 1000 yard range with a new Remington 700, and I could not hit the gong at 400 yards because the trigger was too difficult. I promptly took it to my smith for a trigger job. Trigger control is vital, especially at the longer distances.
 
I don't agree with using magnum rifles for your purpose. They kick too much.
I would suggest the Savage package mentioned, or better yet the Savage Scout model. The scope will take it past your money limit some, but well woth it in my book. I'm saving up for that setup myself.
Which cartridge? The .308 (7.62x51 NATO) round. It is capable of killing moose, elk, deer, and and numerous other critters.
Snipers in "Nam" hit VC at ranges out to 1500 meters using the 7.62 NATO round. Of course these fellows were exceptionally goo shots. I once hit a running deer at 427 paces with a .308. In front of witnesses I may add. I will also add that the deer had been wounded by another hunter, or i would not have shot.
If I were to build up a scout type rifle, I would use a Steyr Mauser action with as light weight a barrel as I could find. Barrel length 19 in. The Leupold Scout scope, A synthetic stock. Cartridge would be the .308. A good aftermarket trigger.
I suppose I should state why my insistance on the .308. If the balloon ever goes up, and the bad guys (name your own poison) come, odds are you will be able to get ammo from our military, one way or another. If NATO or the UN decides to disarm us, the 7.62 is one round of commonality, if you get my drift.
When I was in "Nam", a lot of my buddies had 9mm's, a few had .44 Mag's, .357's, etc. The smart ones, myself included, brought .45's. Ammo for the others was almost impossible to get. .45's were issue. Nuff said?
Paul B.
 
Sturmgewehr for less than $500. Hmm....

If this was the late 70's, I'd unhesistantly say the HK 91 would fit the bill. At $1.5k a pop, it's a little out of our league.

SOG (1-800-944-4867, 240 Harmon Ave. P.O. Box 590, Lebanon, Ohion 45036-0590) has the L1A1 (FN-FAL) for $559.95 or the Russian Vepr (AK style) rifle for $599.95. Both are in .308 Winchester.
You can try to "roll your own" by buying a FN-FAL kit. They're $159.99 from Burns Bros (516-234-7676 232 Blydenburgh Road, Central Islip, NY 11722) minus receivers or $169.95 from Interordnance (see below). Receivers are $375 from DSA (847-277-7258, P.O. Box 387, Round Lake, IL 60073) or $299/375 from Enterprise Arms (626-962-8712, 15861 Business Center Drive, Irwindale, CA 91706).

If those are too expensive for the budget, consider the semi-automatic MAS 49/56. While not strictly within the sturmgewehr genre, it does have a detachable 10 round magazine. In 7.5 mm French, it is certainly more reliable than the .308 conversion (my friend has one and it jammed. Returned to the factory and we'll have to retest it). The front sight, being a flat topped pyramid in shape, is not particularly conducive towards precision marksmanship. It field strips like a SKS and is easy to clean.

One thing I'd stay away from is that casted aluminum receiver HK91 clone. Either get the Oberndorf kit ($449 receiver from Interordnance (704-225-8843, 3305 Westwood Industrial Dr., Monroe NC 28110) and $169.95 from SOG) or the Hesse Arms job (complete gun for around $950 or so or receiver for $399. See http://www.hessearms.com ).

I can't attest to the accuracy or lack thereof of the Mini30. A fellow at the gun club shoots a highly modified one with thumbhole stock, heavy barrel, muzzle brake, scope and gets about 2" group at 100 yards. He's one of our best shooters in Running Deer and brings home a lot of bacon at the club shoots with that modified Mini30. There are no high capacity factory Mini30 magazines.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
I have a fairly strong opinion about cartridges for reliable kills at over 300 yards. Well, at least for hunting. I get grumpy at the notion of cartridges with less performance than the .270/.308 family. Note I said "reliable".

I say that even having been standing (behind a tree) about 40 feet from one of Charles Whitman's victims. One-shot kill. The range was at least 420 yards; the cartridge a .244 Rem. (The UT Tower sniper affair in '66). The hit was in the right shirt pocket, and the bullet deflected downward to the pelvis. But, it was a fairly calm day, and therefore a human is an easy target, being vertical.

I think the primary advantage of the .308 is the ready availability of ammo. Plus, it's easy to load for, and it's an inherently accurate cartridge in almost any halfway-decent gun.

So I'd choose the most appropriate hunting package, and I'd probably choose a bolt action. I'd practice working the bolt without moving the rifle from my shoulder, to become a fairly quick second-shot shooter--and third, and fourth. The odds and probabilities, I think, are rather high against a need for 400-yard anti-personnel use...

Regards, Art
 
I have a Mini 30 and I will agree that it is limited in accuracy at long range. But inside 200 yards it does well enough for defensive purposes. Not a hunter so I will leave that for the experts. As to reliability, I've put at least 2000 rounds through my Mini with no problems what so ever.

FYI. There ARE good hi-cap mags for Mini 30s. I picked up 2 30 round Thermolds at the Reno gun show a few weeks ago and they work great. Wish I could find some more. Haven't seen any before or since. These magazines worked flawlessly. Blew out all 60 rounds rapid fire with NO malfunctions.
 
Thanks to everybody, I have already learned a lot on this subject.

I now realize that I shouldn't have thought about a 400 yard shot, very rare, but I do see the need for up to 200 yards and I still want to stay with a semi auto even if it boils down to spray and prey at the very least it would supress incoming fire and still be putting out deadly return fire.

My percieved needs are for urbar defense as well as to hunt game if needed, I am no longer into hunting but have done a fair amount in years past. So I want a rifle that will offer this and I don't see any problem with a 308 or the 7.62x39 , I am just trying to find one with known reliability, and that I can afford [other needs you know], and after the research that I have done I keep coming back to the Mini 30, but I am still open since I have yet to purchase.

Thanks for putting up with my ignorence on the subject, but this is why this forum will help save lives and protect the American Way that so many of our fathers fought for.

God Please Bless America. Amen.

Charlie in TN
 
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