I have questions about black powder guns in the United States

B

Brian the gunner

New member
1- Is it true that they are not considered firearms?
2- In that states are not considered firearms?
3- You need to buy a black powder gun in united states?
4- Anyone can buy a black powder gun in united states?
5- If I'm Mexican and enter a gun shop and want to buy a black powder gun, did I can buy?
6- If is true, does not seem disturbing them?



PD:Sorry for my English.
 
I think the law and civil rights forum on this board might be a better place for your question but I'll try to answer as best I can.
 
I know that I can have a black powder gun shipped to my door from Cabelas. I've never purchased a black powder gun though.
 
1- Is it true that they are not considered firearms?
The ATF doesn't consider many muzzle loading arms as firearms

2- In that states are not considered firearms?
In my state, convicted felons can't legally hunt with muzzle loading firearms.

3- You need to buy a black powder gun in united states?
?

4- Anyone can buy a black powder gun in united states?
In my state, muzzle loading firearms can be purchased by mail order or at retail stores.

5- If I'm Mexican and enter a gun shop and want to buy a black powder gun, did I can buy?
You could probably buy a muzzle loading firearm without much trouble in my state.

6- If is true, does not seem disturbing them?
I have no problem with people who are legally visiting my country or state buying a muzzle loading firearm.
 
2damnold4this and Dc777:
Thanks for the reply.

2damnold4this what I meant in question 3 is whether they are the same steps to buy a firearm and a black powder.
 
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Black Powder muzzleloading hand & long guns (NOT BP cartridge guns) are legally bought/sold/etc in almost every (but not all) U.S. states with about the same ease/control as a pair of sneakers (footwear).


.
 
Brian- no, it is not the same. If you want a black powder gun you simply hand over the money. If your buying a gun that fires a cartridge you are subjected to a background check and the F.B.I ( Federal Bureau of Intimidation) is called. That requires things such as your drivers license, social security number, city and state of birth, have you ever been arrested, etc etc
 
Brian, it can be (and is) confusing. The key is that there are multiple sets of laws that apply.

For the purpose of purchasing a black powder "firearm" (I use the term "firearm" because I don't know what else to call it) federal law does not require such firearms to be transferred through a licensed FFL. So you can buy a black powder (i.e. muzzleloader, cap-and-ball, or per4cussion cap -- or flintlock, for that matter) rifle or revolver or single-shot dueling pistol anywhere. There is no background check, no federal form 4473, nothing. You can order them through the mail from Cabela's, Sportsmans Guide Company, Traditions, or a number of other sources. A few states, though, may have some limitations on buying black powder firearms. (My state does not, so I'm not an expert.)

BUT ...

That's for purchase. Once you have bought it, what you do with it then falls under the purview of state law, and for purposes of carrying or transporting a firearm, most states regard black powder firearms the same as they do metallic cartridge-firing firearms. There is a Cabela's in my state. I could drive there tomorrow and buy a black powder six gun that's a replica of the guns Wild Bill Hickock carried. Once I get it home, though, I can't just strap on a holster and walk around with it. I need a carry permit for a black powder revolver just the same as I need a permit to carry a modern .357 magnum revolver.
 
When I lived in Tucson AZ it was VERY difficult to find used .36cal percussion revolvers (mainly Remmie 1858 types or Colt 1851 clones). I was told that Mexican nationals were seeking them out, paying cash, taking them down to Mexico where they were being converted to crude .38Spl defensive revolvers. The guns would cross the border as percussion guns that both the US and Mexican officials didn't much care about.

That's...what I was told, anyhow. The barrel spec would be off but I can think of a few ways to deal with that. Target 148gr wadcutters with a hollow base should deform fairly well to the oversize bore and would be mild enough that an open-top might last for more than a few cylinderfulls...and the velocity and stopping power from a 5" or 7.5" barrel might not be too shabby. Not great but probably better that what Wild Bill Hickock was using back in the day...
 
Brian, the thing to remember here is you are confusing Federal with state law.
Federal law considers any firearm made prior to 1898, or a replica thereof, to not be a firearm under federal law regarding purchase by a law abiding non felon that is a US citizen.
State laws can and will be more definitive, and will tend to define a black powder firearm as a legal firearm, or you would see a LOT more people carrying Colt Navy revolvers in places like California, Chicago, New York City, etc. Heck, if I had a choice between an 1858 and nothing in NYC, the big Remington would win every time! However, in more restrictive political subdivisions, that doesn't work - you cannot carry a musket on The Boston Green today without being arrested - General Gage must be grinning in his grave.
I'm just north of you in Arizona, AKA Free AZ, where any law abiding citizen can walk into a gunshop, plunk down the money, wait 5 minutes for the Brady check, or wait no time at all if they have an AZ CCW permit, walk out with gun, holster, ammo, load up, holster and conceal with no permit, license,test, government interference, etc, other than Brady of GCA '68 paperwork.
6- If is true, does not seem disturbing them?
Click to expand...
Not one bit. I prefer it that way - criminals will get guns anyway - check all the criminal gangs in your country, with, what, ONE legal gun shop in Mexico City, and all the licensing/registering/etc., required, how many illegal guns are down there? Lots, and many of them owned by good people, like the self defense forces springing up in your border states. I wish them the best. I prefer to make it as easy as possible, and consider it a litmus test for politicians, to ensure it is as easy as possible for law abiding citizens to arm them selves, and to a level they prefer.
BTW if you fit the category of "not a prohibited possessor" you, too can carry up here. It's in AZ law how foreign nationals can carry.
I hope that clears some things up?
 
It's in AZ law how foreign nationals can carry.
Click to expand...

Green-card holders, yes (legal alien residents). Temporary legal alien visitors and the undocumented do not have RKBA rights at all per US federal law.
 
Well answered by other already.
Do inquire about state and local laws, they can very from Federal.
As to taking one back home to Mexico, your countries laws will cover that.
 
Not quite, Jim.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03101.htm

7. "Prohibited possessor" means any person:
...

(e) Who is an undocumented alien or a nonimmigrant alien traveling with or without documentation in this state for business or pleasure or who is studying in this state and who maintains a foreign residence abroad. This subdivision does not apply to:

(i) Nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid hunting license or permit that is lawfully issued by a state in the United States.

(ii) Nonimmigrant aliens who enter the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show that is sponsored by a national, state or local firearms trade organization devoted to the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms.

(iii) Certain diplomats.

(iv) Officials of foreign governments or distinguished foreign visitors who are designated by the United States department of state.

(v) Persons who have received a waiver from the United States attorney general.
Click to expand...
The scope is quite narrow, but there is a class of non immigrant aliens who may possess firearms in Arizona. As for whether or not they fall under Constitutional Carry, yes, as long as they are not prohibited possessors. Has this been tested in court? Not to my knowledge, but to my non-lawyer eye, the legal avenues are present.
Brian, perhaps you'd like to emigrate to the US? I know of one AZ state agency who will hire on a green card that is looking for people.
 
Some interesting reading:

United States[edit]

Under the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, any cartridge firearm made in or before 1898 ("pre-1899") is classified as an "antique", and is generally outside of Federal jurisdiction,[4] as administered and enforced by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The only exceptions to the Federal exemption are antique machineguns (such as the Maxim gun and Colt Model 1895 "Potato Digger") and antique cartridge rifles or shotguns firing shotgun shells that are classified as "short barreled" per the U.S. Gun Control Act of 1968, namely cartridge rifles with a barrel less than 16 inches long, or shotguns firing shotgun shells with a barrel less than 18 inches long, or either cartridge rifles or shotgun-shell-firing shotguns with an overall length of less than 26 inches. Muzzleloading guns, as replicas of antique guns, are not subject to Federal jusisdiction and are essentially classified the same as an antique gun. Hence, a muzzleloading black-powder shotgun is not subject to the short-barreled National Firearms Act of 1934 restrictions. Purchases of such modern-day manufactured replicas may be done outside of the normal Federal Firearms License (FFL) restrictions that otherwise exist when purchasing modern (post-1898) guns.[4] Replicas of cartridge-firing rifles, however, are not classed the same as antiques, but must be purchased through FFL holders, although a true antique that was manufactured prior to 1899 firing the same cartridge as the replica would be legal for sale without the transfer being processed through an FFL. Furthermore, any rifle re-built on a receiver or frame that was manufactured prior to 1899 is considered antique, even if it has been re-barreled or even if every other part has been replaced.[4]

The following is an excerpt from the portion of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (which modified Title 18, U.S. Code) that exempted pre-1899 guns from the Federal Firearms License paperwork requirements administered by the BATFE:


18 USC 921 (a)(16).

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -- (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial
trade.
Within the United States, antique exemptions vary considerably from state to state.

Identifying pre-1899 antiques[edit]

The production of many cartridge firearms, such as the famous Winchester Model 1894 lever action rifle took place both before and after the December 31, 1898 cut-off date that delineates exempt antique status under U.S. law. Therefore, collectors rely on references such as The Pre-1899 Antique Guns FAQ by James Wesley Rawles[4] to determine if a particular gun's serial number falls within the range of "antique" (pre-1899) production. For example, a Winchester Model 1894 with serial number 147,685 had its frame (or "receiver") made in December 1898 and it is hence classified as an "antique", but records show that a Winchester Model 1894 with serial number 147,686 had its frame made in January, 1899 and it is hence classified as "modern" by the BATFE therefore, black powder weapons are not firearms unless said black powder weapon can be converted to propel rim-fire ammunition.
Click to expand...

For more interesting reading search "gun control act of 1968 "

The above is all Federal law.

Each state has their own 'state laws' that need to be researched before attempting to purchase.
 
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My understanding is that some states very strictly follow the federal definitions of "firearm" and in such states convicted felons can own "front stuffers" and in some cases even carry them on the streets.

I don't know which states this is, mind you, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are people packing 1858 Remmie types and the like on this basis, or keeping such critters around as home defense.
 
Brian, most of us are not familiar with the laws of Mexico.
You will have to check on Mexico laws to determine if you can bring it back there.
 
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