I HATE butchers, and a word to aspiring 'smiths...

M

Mike Irwin

Staff
I just spent the better part of the last 4 hours recutting the single-action sear seat on the HAMMER on a friend's 29-3.

The $#(*#)(*&% bonehead (wasn't my friend, he bought this used for a good price, I wonder why...) who had decided to "lighten" his trigger pull took a file to the top-shelf face in order to reduce the depth of the notch, reducing its depth to WAY below what could be considered normal, safe, or prudent.

He also rounded off the sear face, which even further reduced sear engagement.

As you can imagine, the hammer would push off. It would push off so easily, in fact, that I was hit with a violent allergy sneeze while I had the hammer back and the gun held in both hands, and the hammer dropped.

So, as I said, I just spent the better part of 4 hours recutting the sear seat, making it deeper. Of course, now that I've done that, the case hardening is gone, so the next step is to recase the area using Casenit and a blow torch, and hope that my heat sinks are up to the challenge.

Then I get to recut the proper angle on the trigger sear itself, which will also require a little Casenit love to make it all nice and right again.

For those of you who know S&W revolvers, you'll know that cutting on the HAMMER is absolutely the WORST way of trying to lighten the trigger pull. The case hardening is very thin, and once you're through it, you've either A) ruined the hammer, or B) need to take the proper steps to unruin the hammer, which means recasing the parts.

Word to those own S&W revolvers (or any handgun, for that matter) who THINK they know what they're doing and want to work on their own guns...

CHANCES ARE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING!

If you really want to work on your own guns, there are shop manuals out there, the best for an S&W revolver is by Jerry Khunhausen.

Buy one, and read the ENTIRE manual before you even think about starting.

Then, if you still want to give it a try, invest in the proper tools. Brownell's sells them.

Last, GO SLOWLY, have the shop manual open in front of you, and refer to it often.

The job that I'm doing for my friend, if taken to a gunsmith for repair, would likely result in a new hammer being fitted ($50 or so), possibly a new trigger (another $50), and the 'smith's time, at least another $50 to $100.

And oh yeah, if you're doing trigger work, PUT THE DREMEL DOWN!
 
Precisely why I take my guns to a well-qualified gunsmith to do smithing work. They are the experts in what they do and I do not presume to tell them how to do their jobs, just like they don't tell me how to do mine.

That gun's gotta go bang EVERY time. In all honesty, I learned that lesson the hard way by uttterly screwing up a S&W revolver just like Mike described. It still makes my skin crawl.

Very wise words, Mike, and thanks for saying them.

Bob
 
Then there was this guy who lightened the trigger pull on his 1911. It went full auto the first time it was fired. Before working on a gun, know what you are doing. There are lots of books and videos that will guide you through most gunsmithing projects. Don't attempt projects without knowledge!
 
Aw, C'mon Mike! That Khunhausen fella wasn't born with the knowledge. I bet he ruined a few along the way to becoming an "expert"
Some of us are tactile learners, some of us are slow learners, and some of us are BOTH. :D
 
Yep, I think most gun butchers are consumers who think that buying a gun makes them magically more knowledgeable about it than the factory that made it. IOW, stepping up to the plate without ever having held a bat is the way to hit a home run, and all those factory engineers and trained technicians really didn't know what they were doing.

Of course, some butchers are gunsmiths. Most of us have had the experience of taking a gun to a 'smith and having it come back worse for the money we spent.

So, personally, I always use the factory service department for repairs. This doesn't entirely eliminate butchery, because even the factory can mess up. But it seems to minimize the risk.

My $0.02.
 
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Kingcreek,

You're absolutely right.

Khunhausen and most other gunsmiths didn't simply open up a gun and start chopping on it wantonly.

They got some sort of instruction or guidance first, either from a book or from a gunsmith to whom they apprenticed.

But here's the rub...

If you **** your gun up by indescriminantly chopping on it, don't "deal" with your mistake by selling it! At least be man enough to either admit that you ****ed up and take it to someone who can fix it for you, or learn how to fix it!
 
My question is why would anybody want to change a S-W trigger pull? It's already the sweetest I've ever tried.

If you can't pull off a S-W factory trigger without wavering you need to go to the gym and hit the weights. :p
 
AMEN AMEN AMEN MIKE!!!!!

IT SHOULD BE A HANGING OFFENSE TO MESS UP A FELLOW'S SIXGUN!
THE SLOW WAY...PULL 'EM UP, NOT DROP 'EM...

IN ALL THE SMITH SIXGUNS I'VE DONE ACTION JOBS UPON OVER THE PAST YEARS I HAVE SEEN MAYBE ONE THAT COULD HAVE USED A TOUCHING UP OF THE SA LETOFF...AND THE FELLOW WHO OWNED IT THOUGHT IT WAS JUST FINE AS IS. I LEFT IT ALONE.
 
And now, a word from the other side: FYI: as I have said before, in this area (SF bay area) competent gunsmiths are as rare as honest politicians. They strut like movie stars and charge like brain surgeons. The answer to any question you ask them is "$250 plus parts" even if you just ask where the toilet is. If I knew a good smith with reasonable prices and times, I would use him. I am not fond of mailing my guns across country because of the horror stories I've read about damage and theft. I live in Kalifornia and most of my guns could not be replaced at any price because they are not on the approved list.

I did a trigger job on a Hi-Power and screwed it up the first time and had to buy a second sear (cost $28) mainly because there was no good manual available. Now, the trigger is perfect and it cost me $28, as opposed to sending it to Cylinder and Slide where a basic trigger job is about $150 minimum 6 months time. I also now know exactly how every part of the gun works and can take it apart and put it together blindfolded.

I have done spring jobs on all three of my SW revolvers and a couple for friends because they are easy. Yes, I read Kuhnhausen and was smart enough not to touch any of the sear faces. I also tightened up my 686 after it got a bit loose in end shake (fired 15,000 rounds). Smoothed the inside cylinder face and added a cylinder washer. Another bonus for people who know how to take the sideplate off: they can properly clean and lube their guns so they last longer.

I am also able to do "action jobs" on Beretta 92/96 guns because they are easy: just a mirror polish, no angle changes to the hammer and sear. I also installed a custom "SA only" trigger for target shooting.

Bottom line is, just because you've seen a few guns hacked up doesn't mean every gun owner is a dribbling moron. This particular owner has three college degrees (two in engineering) and can read a manual and master the intricasies of two pices of metal moving in close proximity to each other. Get kind of tired of reading about how the world ends if we try to take a screw out of our guns: got news for you, some of us owners are smarter than some of the nitwits who are making livings doing it.
 
1. Most gun owners are NOT engineers.

As for the quality of much (not all) home gunsmithing work - Ask at any good shooting school - they see lots of screwed up guns if they are checking them out (as they should and as I do for my CCW classes) for push off and the like. Again and again, someone has been working them over at home. These folks usually lack even enough knowledge to know when to leave well enough alone.

2. Changing springs is another matter, or putting in true drop-in parts - that and a good cleaning and lubing while it is apart. Well within the home gunsmith's capabilities.

3. And indeed, why tinker with perfection - that S&W SA is sw-e-e-t! It is the DA that often needs tuning.

4.. I am not keen on the cost or risk of sending guns by UPS or Fed Ex, but I have shipped or received nearly 70 guns over several years, without a problem with theft or damage. For a very small risk you can have access to fine gunsmithing.
 
Jerry Mickulek (sp) has a video on doing a trigger job on a S&W revolver. It is excellent. I bought a bargain model 27 and did my first ever smithing on it, using only the video. He tells you explicitly what NOT to do, as well as what to do. That gun now has the best trigger in my collection, with the exception of a Custom Shop 646.
 
Mike, I applaud your patience.

I don't think I possess enought to go through that with one of my own guns, let alone a buddy's.:eek: Very good advice, indeed.:)
 
The point is: anybody who shoots a revolver and can't take the sideplate off might as well just drop it off a cliff. I pop the plate on one and know immediately: there is a heavy layer of black "oil" the consistency of pancake syrup. Any shooter should at least learn how to thoroughly clean and re-lube his gun. If he can't, it's not only going to be unreliable, it's going to need an overhaul after about 3000 rounds from internal wear. Anybody smart enough to be trusted owning a gun can learn how to maintain one with a few simple instructions and a proper screwdriver. It ain't rocket science.
 
Hi, bountyh and guys,

Well, not every gun owner is a dribbling moron, but I have had to fix a fair number of guns that were hacked up, and not always by idiots. One guy was an automotive engineer, but he destroyed a S&W revolver frame beyond repair trying to redesign it because "S&W doesn't know what they are doing".

Naturally, he traded the gun off to some sucker who didn't know any better.

So, I am not sure possession of a bunch of degrees makes a person any smarter when working with guns. As to the idea that anyone who doesn't feel comfortable tearing down his gun should drop it off a cliff, come on.

I am not telling folks not to work on their own guns, but the fact is that not everyone who owns a gun wants to be an amateur gunsmith. As for pulling off a revolver sideplate for routine cleaning, I think that is about as necessary as taking off the cylinder head on my car every time I change oil.

Jim
 
Bountyhunter,

Go back and re-read my initial post. Don't know where it misled you.

You'll see that NO WHERE did I condemn anyone for WANTING to work on their own guns.

I am condeming those who randomly hack at components without understanding what the hell their doing!

Would you decide to tackle a brake job on your car without knowing what you're doing? Would you start by liberally applying a grinder to random components just because it LOOKS like that's where you should start?

Point be told that I've messed up parts on guns that I've done, and I've had to purchase replacements.

That's the difference. I've FIXED my ****ups, I haven't tried to pawn an unsafe or poorly functioning revolver off on some chump.

You've also apparently fixed your ****ups, so you're not a voice "from the other side."

The OTHER side is "Duh, this har shootin ahron don't work no moh! Paw always sed a grinder and hammer would fix nearby what ails everythin mekkyhanikal. Well, paw ain't here no moh since them hogs done et his face off, so I'll jest sell this har shootin ahron to some rich flatlander and be lettin him warry bout it..."
 
:)

Mike, couldn't agree more.

The high cost of gunsmiths is what allows Ron Powers of Power Custom to sell complete drop-in hammer/trigger sets for SA Rugers for almost $200 total. People buy because:

* You get extra features, like a half-cock loading system that makes the cylinder line up right with the loading gate on the click;

* You get a trigger as good as any pro could do;

* You can DIY and not have to mail the gun anywhere.

Drop-in parts is cool :).
 
I mis-understood your statement of:

"Word to those own S&W revolvers (or any handgun, for that matter) who THINK they know what they're doing and want to work on their own guns...

CHANCES ARE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING!"

to mean that gun owners generally don't know what they're doing. As I re-read it now, I still mis-understand it to mean that.

My point is that people should be encouraged to learn about their guns to keep them working properly and be able to clean and lube them. To that end, I think any gun owner should be able to strip his gun enough to do that, revolvers included.
 
And, again, I fully agree, Bountyhunter. But, once again I state that "learning" to work on one's own guns does NOT in ANY WAY mean going in wantonly and randomly without having at least SOME idea of what you're doing.

Again, I reference to to the brakes on the car analogy.

One's learning about one's firearms, how they operate, etc., is NOT advanced by taking a file to random assorted parts. That is NOT a quest for knowledge.

What's so hard to understand about that concept?
 
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