I guess this thread was inevitable....WHICH X-frame for grizzly defense?

F

FirstFreedom

Moderator
:) I'm sorry, but I have to know what you guys would pick of these two if a big brownie is charging you:

a) the penetrating power offered by the sectional density of the .460 sw mag?

or

b) the sheer massive wallop of the .500 s&w.

We don't really need to get into all the bear defense tangents like "neither; carry a rifle" or "pepper spray works better", etc. - let's just answer this question - if you had to choose between them? Thanks.
 
There are a number of calibers that can be employed in a pistol that can raise your odds of stopping a charging bear. You have specified two of them.

Most people have absolutely no idea what is required to stop a savage 35 mph, 250-350 (average) pound collection of claws and teeth found in a Grizzley. In the end bullet configuration within either caliber is as important as the bore itself. Ben Forkin, the bullet designer and maker for those interested in securing the roughest, toughest most appropriate bullets for their big bore pistol reloads has some very good advice. As the man that people like Bowen and others rely on for their bullets, we probably should listen. Large flat frontal surfaces ranging in the 450 grain arena appears to be the ticket. Penetration yes, sure, of course..but it is high SLAM factor that stops mass that large from moving forward without interuption. In fact, the best you can hope for is to make the beast vear before collapsing. By the way, the person's hand that pulls the trigger on Forkins LBT LFN 450 series will experience the same effect as catching an 8 pound base ball bat in their bare hand (in Bowen Alpine Ruger). The attacker will hate it..and the defender will too. But as I am sure the next poster will point out...its better than the alternative.

Your answer is the .500 Magnum. Why? Its about bullet mass, configuration and velocity. In the question raised, mass appears to be the bottom line.

Beside, all too soon this Old/New cartridge will be drawn into the next round of gun related legislation. Quickly, now, before the laws change again.
 
Amen TFL.

P.S. I have a .45 Colt Redhawk being "Alpined" by Bowen right now and have a .44 Special built on a GP100 frame. Gotta love his work.

.44mag
 
Btt

C'mon, If you had to pick one of these two to save your life, which would it be - assume same bbl length. Just post your vote, 500 or 460?
 
I'm factually ignorant, but ...

Insufficient info to intelligently answer– do not have ballistic info on the rounds. Would not KNOW the answer even with that info.

Assuming both bullets lodge in bruin, all ballistic energy will be expended. Everything else equal the SLAM factor difference between a .500 inch and .460 inch round (.04 inch dia) might be pretty insignificant against a 400 pounder.

When in doubt and/or everything else equal, I go with the ‘bigger hole theory’. So for the sake of this vote and being factually ignorant -- .500 Mag.

What I want in a bear round—PENETRATION to get deep to the bear’s critical body parts and this will require a TOUGH BULLET that will 1. NOT break up in light bones or mushroom too quickly AND 2. fully BREAK MAJOR BONES when encountered – leg bones for example. A good PUSH from the powder. The WHOLE THING requires some balance.

During the 90’s in AK I carried a 44 mag with Hornady 300 gr rounds (as I recall) and felt undergunned but did not want to carry a shotgun or rifle.
Like a fool. got charged from 150 to 20 ft by a 3-4 year old while solo and not carrying – we both survived.
 
well...
This is all great, but has anyone actually fired 4" X frame with full house load??? I have, and it was a very painfull experience. It has more recoil then scandium .44mag (329?). If the first shot does not hit the target, ot hits it insignificantly from a close range, the time needed for the follow up shot will be too long. I have considered X-frame, but ended up carrying short Marlin lever action carbine in .450 Marlin. Yes, it is longer then a revolver, but it is a shoulder weapon and I can make follow up shots quicker, if I have to.

...now, if S&W were to make a revolving carbine based on the X frame... ;)
 
I have both the 4 inch 500 and the 8 3/8. Neither gun recoils that bad. Its a heavy push back not a twist of the wrist like some 454`s I have shot. When you shot the gun you know it went off.

I do not recommend them to people who have not shot magnums before. I can handle the recoil ok and shoot the gun accurately. To me accuracy is the test and these guns have great triggers from the factory.
 
Another one who has shot both recently and I actually thought the shorter one had less kick. I'm no gung ho recoil addict either, as I probably will never fire a .454 in my life again. Thats one heavy heavy kicking gun. The .500's are much less so and has in my experience little more felt recoil than a .44mag.
 
Another one who has shot both recently and I actually thought the shorter one had less kick. I'm no gung ho recoil addict either, as I probably will never fire a .454 in my life again. Thats one heavy heavy kicking gun. The .500's are much less so and has in my experience little more felt recoil than a .44mag.
Click to expand...

I would respectfully point out that a .454 shot in an X-frame would be completely different than firing it in what you most likely fired it in before. The .460 S&W Magnum will chamber it, would be interesting to see what is thought of the .454 then. Keep in mind that the 8 3/8" X frame weighs in at 72.5 oz or 4.5 lbs. Have a good one.

.44mag
 
The 460s wasnt designed to be a dangerous game stopper...it was developed along the lines to have rifle ballistics out of a handgun...which it does quite well with its light bullets. A dangerous game stopper it is not though with those loads...there are going to be several heavier hardcast loads, but none will compare with the sheer knockdown power of the 500...when somethings trying to gnaw your leg off, ill take the bigger one ANY day of the week!
 
The bear will not notice any difference, but if I have to pick one, I'll go with the .500. I believe it was John Linebaugh who once said, "Bullet weight doesn't decrease with distance".

S&W claims something like 2340 fps with a 200 grain CorBon loading in the .460. The .500 can launch a 325 grain bullet at 2000 fps, and a 270 grainer at 2200 fps. John Ross's "Thunderbolt" clocks a 510 grainer @ 1700 fps in the .500. There is really no need for such max loads, even with bear. I regularly shoot a 460 grain cast GC bullet at 1100 fps in my four incher and it's quite controllable. I wouldn't worry much about penetration even at "only" 1100 fps. It's going to take a lot to fully stop and completely dissipate the energy of a 460 grain bullet, even at those velocities.
 
Got both the 4"and the 8 3/8". Using both ultrmax 385gr and Hornady 350xtp.
They both are powerfull guns. The 8 3/8" actually has the characteristic mag. hand slap,where the 4" is more the shove you hear about. One thing for sure is when you shoot the 4", the first thing you think about is "where's the target". The blast is immense.

How's this..My wife shot the 4".I figuered she would hand it back(ie throw). She looked at me and asked if she hit it. I said no. She said, " give me another bullet".
I do love her so..
kid
 
Yo man...

you quoted black bear weights me thinks. A male grizzly (brown bear) can weigh over 1,000 pounds dude!!! This is a whole other category ballistics wise my good friend.
 
I killed a Mr. Grizz once, that brown hairy dude was in a Camp Ground and was about to munch on Mr. Park Visitor. I hit him three times with slugs from a 870 police with rifle sights. The first one got his attention and p**sed him off, the second knocked him down and the third finished him off. Why did I use a shotgun, cause when we jumped out of the unit, my partner grabbed the .375 first. My partner was on the other side of the CG when I came upon Mr. Grizz.
Would I shoot Mr. Grizz with a pistol?? Only if I didn't have a rifle or a shotgun with slugs.
Mr or Mrs Grizz is a Land Version of a White Shark with four legs and a bad attitude.

Jungle Work
 
Is that S&W coming with the anti-gunner hole by its cylinder catch? :D

Then my choice would be:
News-11-11-2004B.jpg

A hot loaded .454 could probably still getting done out of this much more wieldy beastie. :D
 
Who is holding the gun? (you or the bear)

The way the question was phrased, I couldn't quite understand who was it that needed defending. :D :D :D :D :D

Anyhow, 'boats' already posted my first choice. Ruger 454 alaskan.
If you don't like 454, you can always load 45colt +P (somewhere between a 454 and 45LC)

Its 6 shots vs. 5, is cheaper to practice with, and costs less per round and upfront costs.

My $.02
 
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