I failed at the "Revolver Check Out"

C

CommandoX

New member
I am typing this to you folks in hopes of finding some reassurance and support. (Smile)

Yesterday I went to one of my LGS that I've delt with many times in the past. With me, I had 2 pistols that just have not come to meet my needs or expectations. I was lookin' ta' trade and I had a fairly good idea of what I wanted in advance. I also had a few hundred dollar bills in my pocket threatening to burn right through to the skin if I didn't make 'em gone soon.

After having been given their offer of trade-in value and accepting I said, "I'm looking for a .22 revolver, what have you got?" "Nothing cheap please."

The fella I was being helped by smiled and pulled out a Ruger Single Six and a Ruger with the barrel combo. Now, as much as I like the idea of it, I've never been too fond of the grip style of the old west guns. There is some vein, nerve or old splinter in my hand that makes shooting them not as pleasant as say my beloved Ruger GP 100 gripped gun or my .44 Super Red Hawk. I looked them over and they were nice but when I put them in my hand and held them up to sight (away from all people in the store!) I just knew they wouldn't work for me. I asked what else he had, he asked what I wanted to do with it. When I mentioned target/paper/competition/teaching the daughters he grabbed the Ruger GP100 in .22 and then the S&W 617. I picked up the Ruger first because I have great appreciation and respect for their guns. I own several of them in fact and have been very, very pleased with them. I was honestly dissapointed with it. The trigger felt gritty and unpredictable as though there were metal shavings floating around in the frame somewhere. There were finishing marks on the frame in several places that just DIDN'T look finished. The sights were HI-VIZ style and great though.

Then, I picked up the S&W. It was different and....better. The gun "looked" good, the trigger was nice from what little I could determine because you shouldn't dry fire one. Unfortunately, I failed to check several aspects of the gun while the dealer talked to me about it. (Not that he was trying to distract me.) I really gave that gun AND the Ruger several grab-and-point efforts and tried to feel what was best. In the end, I chose the S&W. I've never owned a pistol worth that much money short of my Ruger Super Redhawk in .44.

I got it home and commenced to giving it it's first cleaning. I began to see things I'd not seen in the gun shop. The "list" came to mind as I examined the 617 further. The biggest, most glaring thing was the not properly crowned barrel. It was off center by a fair margin leaning to the left (barrel facing me). Then I noticed the flashing left over in the frame where the arm comes out to move the cylinder. I just couldn't understand how I'd missed it in the store. Spinning the cylinder took effort that I did not expect as well. It seemed "bound up" or something or too tight a fit on the rod. So...I cleaned and lubed it. I went online and started reading about crowns and came to the conclusion that I had to at least give it a chance according to the folks on the S&W forums.

Today I took it to the range with 7 different .22 ammo choices I have on hand. I believed I should give it a chance to show what it might be able to do. It didn't take long shooting it from a pistol rest in single action to realize the crown was not going to be good enough. No matter what I did, doing all the things I am supposed to do while shooting a revolver it would not make a group less than 1 and a half inches at 10 yards. I have been fortunate enough to shoot other guys 617s at my local range and they either stacked the rounds on top of each other or make less than 1/2" groups for me so I believe I know what they are capable of. I have a S&W 22A that will regularly shoot sub 1" groups with 4 of those types of ammo while I am standing and shooting iron sights only!

The cylinder remained hard to spin throughout my morning effort.

I eventually tried the gun double action and was really disappointed in the trigger feel. It was gritty and hard. Noticeably more so than the Ruger I tried at the LGS. Again, I've shot several S&W guns before and the triggers were nothing short of amazing...every one. This was way less than expected.

To top it off, by the end of my shooting session, the upper back of the hand grip was separating. I left the range feeling really bad. I'd not followed the Revolver Check Out and it had come back to bite me...HARD. The long ride home gave me time to reflect, put my big boy pants back on and decide to call S&W in hopes of some sort of solution. I talked to a rep. and told him my story. He was understanding and even openly apologetic. He gave me a return slip email and I'll be sending it off with a long winded (Much like this) letter to the folks at S&W on Monday morning.

I really hope they can make this what it should be and restore my faith in their manufacturing/Quality Control. I want to remain a consumer who appreciates and respects firearms made by Smith and Wesson.

If you've actually read all this...thanks. I look forward the hearing folks experiences, knowledge and lessons I've yet to learn.

All the best folks! CommandoX
 
It might be time to give every new gun the same checks as for a used one.
Sad to say, but maybe more necessary than we have been used to in the past.
It's not only guns that seem to be suffering quality issues, either.
My new van has had three recalls so far.
Trust no-one.
 
Never having owned a 617 I can't speak for them. I do have a 1969 and a 1979 (if I recall correctly) Model 17 and they are both exceptional shooters. Two of my best liked .22 LR handguns.

If I were you I would start with trying a call to S&W. Point out some of the flaws and see if they will rework the gun for you under warranty. Nothing to lose in giving them a call. Personally I just do not place much faith in new manufacture guns with the exception of a few.

Ron
 
S&W will fix it for you, give em a chance. I sent one back and it got fixed perfectly but on the 2nd try. If it comes back and aint right just send her back again on their dime until it comes back to your liking.
 
Hi Commando,

I read and reread your post. I'm going to say something that might offend some
but I have found this to be true where I live.

Doc's rule #1. Never buy from a GS unless you've bought there before and you absolutely trust them. Like going to a house of ill repute. sometimes you get lucky but usually you come home with extra baggage.

You probably could have gotten a better deal trading with a company like Buds. I know I did. Twice I traded up for rugers and never looked back,,

Four revolvers later only one had to go to Ruger and they did a most fantastic job for me.
 
Thanks for the replies so far folks. I appreciate the input from everyone.

Doc Holliday 1950, your advice has not fallen on deaf ears. I must admit that I've had a mixed bag of results from this GS. I've come away happy a few times and I've also come away feeling like somebody stole something from me in my past interactions. I cannot say that I honestly trust them - absolutely. Sadly, this latest purchase doesn't go into the "good experience" column either.

I will look into Bud's trade in set up in the future. I've actually been to their store and shot at the indoor range. Nice folks and a really nice range.

I look forward to hearing from more knowledgeable folks!
 
I had a similar experience with my GP100 in 22. Ruger stood by me and took care of me. S&W will do the same for you. It looks like we will have to do the revolver checkout even for new guns now.
 
Don't you have to ship the guns to buds without a guarantee on trade-in value? That is what has stopped me from using them in the past. What happens if it gets there and they decide it is in worse condition?

I am definitely in agreement any new gun needs a full check-out.
 
Checking out a new gun before I actually bought it might have saved me a lot of headaches. My Colt Commander was a total piece of junk that would have been obvious if I had really looked it over. It was the beginning of a run of bad new guns I had back in the early 80's. My used guns were much better for some reasons. Lately, everything has been good, and I keep waiting for another dud to pop up, but so far, nope, the good roll goes on.
 
On the rare couple of occasions when I've gotten a defective gun...mostly used, but at least one brand new, my dealer has simply bought it back from me for full price, given me a store credit (I had a choice of cash also) and I purchased another gun. They've then dealt with getting it fixed themselves.

The one time it was a new gun, we did send it back once. It didn't get fixed. No problem. They bought it back, I got something else.

Is that unusual?
 
Yeah, it's been my experience it is very unusual.
Most gun shops want the customer to deal directly with the manufacturer themselves.
Stay with that shop for sure. it sounds like it's a winner.
Although, maybe I'm just lucky, but I've only had one lemon ever.
 
I was surprised the first time they offered to do that. Understand I've never asked, they have just offered to do it. Rather they do it for everyone, I don't know, I'm not everyone. I am a regular customer, so maybe they just think it's worth it to keep me happy. After all, they know I'm going to spend the same money there anyway. It's not like I'm going to walk out the door and take my money with me.
 
It's in their interest, too.
It motivates customers to buy without worry, knowing they can return it for an exchange.
Within reasonable limits, of course.
When we bought our last car, the dealer had a similar exchange policy.
Taking the risk of out of the purchase was quite a motivator.
It made all the difference as where we bought our car.
 
I got it home and commenced to giving it it's first cleaning. I began to see things I'd not seen in the gun shop. The "list" came to mind as I examined the 617 further. The biggest, most glaring thing was the not properly crowned barrel. It was off center by a fair margin leaning to the left (barrel facing me). Then I noticed the flashing left over in the frame where the arm comes out to move the cylinder. I just couldn't understand how I'd missed it in the store. Spinning the cylinder took effort that I did not expect as well. It seemed "bound up" or something or too tight a fit on the rod. So...I cleaned and lubed it. I went online and started reading about crowns and came to the conclusion that I had to at least give it a chance according to the folks on the S&W forums.
Click to expand...

From this I would assume you purchased a "USED" revolver. So all the folks jumping in and making the statement about doing a full revolver check on a "NEW" revolver is unfounded if you did buy a used gun. As to the crown, is the barrel off center or just the crown? Flashing is normal due to the gap between the forcing cone and the cylinder
 
Actually Don P, as I stated in the initial post, I purchased a brand new revolver. It wasn't used and wasn't presented that way to me.

The flashing issue is not on the forcing cone area of the gun. It is in the slot where the arm comes out of the frame and actuates the cycling of the cylinder when you pull the hammer back.

The barrel is not off center that I could tell. It was the crown that is off center of the end of the barrel.


CajunBass, that sounds like a dealer to keep for sure! If only more folks could do that for the consumer in our area of interest.

Thanks again for the info., insight and stories guy/gals.
 
Manufacturing defects were there when new, before it was a used gun, if indeed it is.
Assumptions about it not withstanding.
Whether or not this particular gun is used or new, it's always a good idea to avoid hassles and check for flaws before paying.
 
ALWAYS thoroughly inspect a new gun, just as you would a used one.


Doc's rule #1. Never buy from a GS unless you've bought there before and you absolutely trust them. Like going to a house of ill repute. sometimes you get lucky but usually you come home with extra baggage.
Click to expand...
This makes no sense. It is more profitable BY FAR to build a good relationship with your local dealer than an outfit like Bud's.

Plus, the dealer has no control over the quality of the guns they receive. If you end up buying a new gun with problems, it's between you and the manufacturer. It ain't like buying cheap crap from Walmart where you can return/exchange it when it breaks.
 
Howdy

First off, it is perfectly fine to dry fire a rimfire revolver made by S&W. The recesses around the chambers are large enough in diameter that the firing pin will not touch the cylinder. You cannot make a blanket statement like that about every rimfire revolver, but S&W has been recessing chambers like that since the 1930s. I have a bunch of S&W rimfire revolvers, going back to 1932, and every one of them has recessed chambers and the firing pin simply does not touch the cylinder. I have a Model 617-6 made in 2003 and on it too the counterbores for the rims are large enough in diameter that the firing pin does not contact the cylinder. Just examine a fired round in your cylinder some time and you will see what I mean. The firing pin dent will be in a position clear of the edge of the counterbore.

Of course, before dry firing any firearm, in a store or anywhere else, you should first check with the owner to find out if they mind. If they say no, then you have to respect their wishes. And of course make sure it is unloaded.

I am really not terribly surprised about your dissatisfaction with your new Model 617. I am one of those old curmudgeons who firmly believes the old guns were better made than the current ones. I bought my 617 used, and other than the MIM parts, which we will not speak of right now, there is nothing physically wrong with it.

However last year, I bought a new Model 686, the first brand-spanky new Smith I have bought in 40 years, and it did have a manufacturing issue that did not become apparent until I had launched a couple of boxes down range.

The part you are talking about that causes the cylinder to rotate is known as the Hand. It pokes through a rectangular hole in the frame. Sometimes that rectangular hole is known as a window. Of course, there should not be anything around the window that prevents the hand from moving freely. There is another window down near the bottom of the cylinder that the cylinder stop protrudes through. Technically, that is not flash you see on the window because flash is defect in a casting. Smith and Wesson frames are not cast, they are still forged from a solid piece of steel and then the shape is finalized by machining. So technically what you are seeing around the window for the hand is a burr, not flash. Regardless, it should not be there.

And without sounding too much like an old curmudgeon, in 'the old days' however you want to define them, defects like that would not have left the factory. S&W, like many other manufacturers, has chosen to cut manufacturing costs in many ways. All manufacturers do that. However anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that Smith has cut down on many of the in process inspection steps that used to be a regular part of the manufacturing process. Again, with no hard facts to back it up, it appears that S&W has chosen to pay the cost of correcting defects when they are reported, rather than making sure the product leaves the factory in perfect condition.

Without examining your revolver personally I cannot comment on the crown or what is making the cylinder bind.

You have done the right thing by contacting Smith directly. I am sure they will correct the problems at their expense.

Regarding trusting a dealer, if it is a brand new in the box product, what does dealer trust have to do with it? The product was either manufactured correctly or it was not. That has nothing to do with the dealer, he is just a reseller. And most retailers these days will tell you to contact the manufacturer directly if there is a problem with a product. It's not like there is an expert gunsmith in house at most retailers, in fact there seldom was 'in the old days'.
 
Dry firing a 617...........................I've owned a 617 for more then 25 years and no one had better not dry fire my revolver.
According to Smith and Wesson: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...750001_750051_757815_-1_757814_757812_image#2

Can I dry fire my S&W handgun?
Q: Can I dry fire my Smith & Wesson?

A: Yes, except for the .22 caliber pistols which includes models 22A, 22S, 422, 2206, 2214, 2213 and 41.

.22 caliber revolvers such as models 17, 43, 63, 317 and 617 also should not be dry fired.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top