I don't believe "con" and "lib" mean anything, the REAL war is between govt loyalists

[Vermont Carry]

I don't believe "con" and "lib" mean anything, the REAL war is between govt loyalists

I don't believe the terms "con" and "lib" mean anything. I believe the REAL war is between government loyalists/apologists and true patriots who support true liberty over a patently tyrannical federal government, and support true liberty over state governments that are it's paid hessians, and support true liberty over local governments that bulldoze our homes to pack in the strip malls and pull us over to write a million tickets to fill city coffers with $$$.

If you REALLY look closely at the behavior of bush supporters as WELL as klinton clones, you'll notice that these people are hard core GOVERNMENT loyalists who are also fiercely loyal to what they PERCEIVE as "their team." Since both "teams" are wholly owned and controlled by the establishment, we really have a ONE party system. Both parties supported this wasteful and expensive war in Iraq against a NON threat because the establishment wanted these wars. Currently it is bush supporters who tell themselves they are the only true patriots, but they don't seem to see that their loyalty is ACTUALLY to government THEN bush. For years I couldn't understand their CONTRADICTORY behavior until I figured this out.

The REAL question is NOT "are you a republicrat or a demicon. The REAL question is are you a government loyalist or not.

 

[Leif]

So, if in previous positions of employment, I worked for the Federal and state governments at various times, does that make me a Hessian?

Cool, I can't wait to oppress!

 

[Wildalaska]

O yeah....shades of gray huh?

How about this: I'm patriotic. I support some aspects of Federal/Stae policy and oppose others. I dont find anything particularly "tyrannical" about our government and recognize that bad policies/actions can be cured by political/legal action. I see the words "true patriots" and "true liberty" and "patently tyrannical" in one sentence and all I can picture is some hatemonger sitting in his remote cabin muttering about ZOG and JBTs.

WildnotnecessarilydirectedattheposterofcourseAlaska

PS: A bit of reasonableness is always welcome

 

[Vermont Carry]

dont find anything particularly "tyrannical" about our government

WOW, at least you're honest. Never have read much of the internal revenue code I see . Make sure that rifle and shotgun barrel doesn't go below the "apporved" length. Pay that fee to prove you're not a criminal the next time you buy a gun. If you're semi auto rifle breaks/malfunctions, your heroes in government will charge you with "illegal possession of an unregistered machine gun," but you're right there's nothign "particularly tyrannical" about "our" government [/sarcasm]

I have noticed that to some people, ignorance is bliss and denial is it's opium.

 

[Leif]

I have noticed that to some people, ignorance is bliss and denial is it's opium.

Yes, as in ignorance of what actually constitutes tyranny and and repeated denial of the fact that the current political landscape of the United States comes nowhere near the historical examples of tyranny. You know, like Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, Communist China ... millions dead, millions oppressed, etc.

Oh wait, the US had Waco and the Patriot Act. What else is in your party's playbook of tyrannical offenses there, sparky?

BTW - I don't like how the government acted with respect to either of those issues, but there's a vast gulf of difference between them and the true examples of tyranny I cited above. Just so we're clear ...

 

[Wildalaska]

Never have read much of the internal revenue code I see

Actually I used to do some tax law so I have read it. What does the IRC have to do with tyranny?

Make sure that rifle and shotgun barrel doesn't go below the "apporved" length.

Pay your tax and cut your barrel then...how is that "tyrannical"?

If you're semi auto rifle breaks/malfunctions, your heroes in government will charge you with "illegal possession of an unregistered machine gun," but you're right there's nothign "particularly tyrannical" about "our" government

Want a machine gun? Go buy one...

Sorry, your examples are a specious as your intial post.

WildiknowwhatsnextrandyweaverAlaska

 

[Vermont Carry]

the United States comes nowhere near the historical examples of tyranny.

Well I suppose if you continually NARROW the definition of tyranny to weed out the things that make you uncomfortable then I could see how you would feel that way (notice I said feel and not think). See my previous post please. Crack open the internal revenue code, do your OWN taxes, try to start your OWN business, and you're tune will change reeeeel fast.

 

[Wildalaska]

Owe Uncle Sam some money do we?

WildanotherguywithagrievanceAlaska

 

[Vermont Carry]

What does the IRC have to do with tyranny?

I'm just going to let that beauty stand on it's own.

Pay your tax and cut your barrel then...how is that "tyrannical"?

Yes yes I know, the mantra of the government loyalist is "Do what you're told and you won't have a problem, always do what you're told, obey and bow like I do."

 

[Wildalaska]

ROTFLMAO......

WildwhateverAlaska

 

[springmom]

I do my own taxes every year. We pay what we owe and have no problems.

Springhe'sgoingtobringupRandyWeavernext,Wildmom

 

[Vermont Carry]

Owe Uncle Sam some money do we?

WildanotherguywithagrievanceAlaska

Ahhh yes, attack the messenger and avoid the subject. A classic.

I notice that you're all about one liners and not much of a fan of serious, subject oriented debate. Hey to each his own. You are proving the premise of this thread very well (the premise being that the real war is between government loyalists and non government loyalists).

 

[Leif]

Actually, I do my own taxes.

Difficult reading material is not quite the same as tyrannical oppression. I thought that once when young, in grade school ...

Would you really want to compare yourself and your oppression by the IRS to say, the survivor of a Soviet gulag? If so, well, you certainly have more, well, more something than me.

Expanding the definition of tyranny to include, well, everything you don't like doesn't exactly produce a workable definition.

 

[Vermont Carry]

Expanding the definition of tyranny to include, well, everything you don't like

That's a strange and semi evasive thing to say. It's almost as if you're telling me to "learn to like" (a.k.a. rationalize) things that would ordinarily fit into the ACTUAL definition of tyranny, so as to make oneself "feel" better.

Hey, believe whatever you WANT to believe about tyranny and the U.S. government. If you're interested, this is a small sampling of what forms the definition of tyranny that I work from:

1. Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. —Thomas Jefferson

2. And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. — Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy p. 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

3. Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. — Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment (1764).

4. The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. — THOMAS JEFFERSON

5. A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. — THOMAS JEFFERSON (1801)

6. No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution (1776).

7. No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him. — Thomas Jefferson [TRANSLATION for government worshippers: gun/drug bans, among others, are immoral.]

8. I have ever deemed it fundamental for the United States never to take active part in the quarrels of Europe. Their political interests are entirely distinct from ours. Their mutual jealousies, their balance of power, their complicated alliances, their forms and principles of government, are all foreign to us. They are nations of eternal war. — THOMAS JEFFERSON (1823) [The middle east certainly couldn’t fit that description now could it?]

9. A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. — Thomas Jefferson’s letter To Peter Carr, his 15 year old nephew. Paris, August 19, 1785, Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318, Foley, Ed., reissued 1967.

10. The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;... — Thomas Jefferson to Justice John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:45.

11. "The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson

12. "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."-Thomas Jefferson

13. "God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure." Thomas Jefferson letter to William S. Smith Paris, Nov. 13, 1787

14. "if there be one principle more deeply written than any other in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest." -- Thomas Jefferson [OUCH!]

15. "You seem ... to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy... The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal." --Thomas Jefferson, 1820

16. I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. — THOMAS JEFFERSON (1791)

17. "The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion." - Thomas Jefferson

18. "The greatest calamity which could befall us would be submission to a government of unlimited powers." --Thomas Jefferson, 1825

19. THOMAS JEFFERSON; "A NATION WHOSE PEOPLE TRADE LIBERTY FOR SAFETY DESERVE NEITHER AND WILL LOSE BOTH."

20. One man with courage is a majority. — Thomas Jefferson

21. The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive.– Thomas Jefferson

22. 'When the government fears the people it is a democracy....when the people fear their government it is tyranny...' --- Thomas Jefferson

23. Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? — THOMAS JEFFERSON (1801)

24. I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion. —THOMAS JEFFERSON

25. THOMAS JEFFERSON: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.

 

[Leif]

Hey, believe whatever you WANT to believe about tyranny and the U.S. government.

... and back at ya'!

Out of curiousity, by attacking mainstream Republicans and Democrats, a.k.a.,

bush supporters as WELL as klinton clones

(at least, that's what I think you meant), who exactly are you trying to reach with your appeal? I mean, you've attacked the vast majority of the American population, and painted support of your positions with a martial brush (Hessians, loyalists, war, etc.), so who exactly are you looking to for support? You and what army after you've insulted everybody in the country who might possibly have joined your team?

Or is this one of those "I know how things really are, you deluded member of the sheeple, follow my wolfish wisdom or be counted among the oppressed" things, in which case I'm sorry I asked.

The thread could be retitled: "Why third parties can't attract votes."

 

[springmom]

24. I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion. —THOMAS JEFFERSON

I have always liked this quote. By Mr. Jefferson's own words, then, the cure for IRS "tyranny" is for the people to exercise their power. In other words, vote in enough representatives and senators to replace the current system with something else. Drawing angry lines in the sand about "true patriots" and "hessians" doesn't "inform their discretion", it just sounds, well, angry.

I'll vote for a flat tax in a New York minute. There are all kinds of things in the current tax code I would like to see changed. But it hardly takes another revolution to get it done. It just takes a change in representation in Washington, which will happen when enough people really want it to happen.

Springmom

 

[Wildalaska]

Ahhh yes, attack the messenger and avoid the subject. A classic.

Avoid the question too huh?

notice that you're all about one liners and not much of a fan of serious, subject oriented debate.

Gimme a serious subject to debate and Ill debate, but since this thread started with a hate blog polemic I give it what it deserves

WilditsallaplotAlaska

 

[reils49]

I have to agree with WildAlaska on this; you can be a whole hearted patriot, and still support the government. Yes, our government has and will continue make mistakes. Im honestly not a huge fan of gov't intrusion into my life, but i dont consider them the Taliban or Nazis. Most members of our government are just liberal nuts that see the world through rose colored glasses. Thats why its so important to exercise your rights, not just the RKBA, but also the right to vote and to speak out for change. Thats why forums like this are important, its an outlet to share your views, and try to make a difference.

 

[badbob]

Vermont Carry, don't cast pearls before swine. Either people kwow something is wrong or they don't. According to your poll 70% fall into the former category. That is good, now let them do the research if they haven't already done so. Here's a website thats both entertaining and enlightening:
http://freedomtofascism.com/

badbob

 

[Vermont Carry]

(at least, that's what I think you meant), who exactly are you trying to reach with your appeal? I mean, you've attacked the vast majority of the American population, and painted support of your positions with a martial brush (Hessians, loyalists, war, etc.), so who exactly are you looking to for support? You and what army after you've insulted everybody in the country who might possibly have joined your team?

Or is this one of those "I know how things really are, you deluded member of the sheeple, follow my wolfish wisdom or be counted among the oppressed" things, in which case I'm sorry I asked.

The thread could be retitled: "Why third parties can't attract votes."

You mistakenly assume that I'm trying to form a group. I don't operate on group"think."

By the way, I haven't said a word about third parties. If what I've said denotes the need for americans to walk away from the establishment and support a "third party" then so be it. I doubt that americans have the guts to do such a thing (they usually care more about being government loyalists and RARELY care about principle in my observation).

Drawing angry lines in the sand about "true patriots" and "hessians" doesn't "inform their discretion", it just sounds, well, angry. ---MOM

Ma'am, this is why I don't believe (I hope that I'm allowed my beliefs without being flamed and/or accused of being "anti woman" or similar nonsense) that women are able to understand (at least enough of them) the forces at work here. Women tend to say things like "stop being angry, stop bickering." Being allowed to express anger (without people trying to shut you up) is one of the bedrock personal RIGHTS that took place at the constitutional convention. The founding fathers had LOTS of anger, which they REGULARLY EXPRESSED. I will probably be flamed up and down, but I thank my God that no women were delegates to the constitutional convention.