I am thinking of adding the 1911 back to my CCW/HD rotation

C

chaim

New member
Several years ago, I dropped 1911s from my defensive guns and relegated them to the category of range toy. There were good reasons. The SA safety is one more thing that could go wrong. As a result I used to spend a lot of time practicing my draw with my 1911s. However, as time went on, life got busier, and I spent less time practicing my draw. So, DAO, DA/SA (decocker only) and striker fired with no safety became my method. I already used some DAO pistols, and I used revolvers, so it simplified things by always having the same first shot and similar manual of arms through all my carry guns: pick it up or draw from my holster, aim and pull the trigger. Simplicity is good. Later, I also got into the mindset of capacity: I simply prefer a higher capacity gun when I can carry one.

I started thinking about adding the 1911 again recently. Most recently, it was when I decided that I will keep a .380 in my stable of choices (maybe as a backup gun once in a while). However, I wanted one with decent sights, and that was comfortable at the range (in addition to being helpful in a self-defense shooting, this gun will mostly be a range toy). Two of the top three guns on this search ended up being based on the 1911 (Colt Mustang, SIG P238). I also started thinking about a 10mm and I'd rather have a 10mm 1911 than Glock. That all got me to thinking (always dangerous)...

There are definite advantages (for me) to a 1911. I shoot 1911s better than almost any other gun. They just fit my hand right, they point quite naturally, and of course, there is the trigger. The only gun that shoots as well for me is the CZ 75B (and I have added a P01 as a CCW/HD gun). It never hurts to carry the gun you shoot best. It is a very thin gun which is good for my preferred carry method (IWB, usually tucked).

As for capacity, it is a loss, but when comparing apples to apples, it isn't as bad as it seems. IMO, going to .45ACP makes up for some capacity loss. Comparing my S&W 1911SC (Commander size) to my SIG P250 Compact (.45ACP) , I'll lose one round (1911: 8+1, SIG: 9+1) but it is much thinner and easier/more comfortable to conceal. When going to smaller 1911s, the capacity is a wash if I go .40 or 9mm. A 3" 1911 can carry 7 or 8 rounds of .40 or 9mm, similar to other small single stack 9mms and .40s, and the SIG P938 or Kimber Micro-9 hold 6, just like most micro-9s from other companies.

I live in MD, I can't carry here (it is nearly impossible to get a permit) so I only carry when out of state on my UT non-resident permit. I typically carry somewhere between 30-40 days a year (some years, as little as 20 days). Initially, this (part-time carry) was part of why I dumped the 1911, though how often I carry has little to no bearing on how often I train on my draw from the holster and disengaging the safety.

I doubt I'd go to only 1911s. I shoot my CZ just as well, and the 14+1 of my P01 would be nice at times. My new S&W M&P40c has a combination of capacity and size that no 1911 can ever match. My .380 (and LCP) is being replaced no matter what, and I may be going to 1911 style (I'm leaning towards the P238), though the Remington RM380 is high on the list (I'd definitely get the Mustang or P238 if they all cost the same, but at current prices the RM380 may well get the nod). If I do go back, my SIG P250 Compact will be replaced with my S&W 1911SC and will probably be traded on a 3" 1911 (probably RIA or Iver Johnson, I don't like carrying a gun that is too expensive). I may "replace" my SIG P290 with a 3" 1911, or I may go with both. Though, that does mean I'll be back to the disadvantage of two different styles for defensive guns to train for (DA first shot/no safety, and SA with safety). Of course, so long as I train for the safety on the 1911, does it really matter if I try to swipe the non-existent safety when I use one of my other guns? Heck, I still sometimes do that from when I did train with my 1911s from the holster.

If I do decide to go back to 1911s, my carry guns will look like (in likely order in which they'll see the most use):
  • Commander sized 1911 (due to its value, I may eventually replace my S&W 1911SC with something less expensive, maybe a RIA)
  • CZ P01
  • S&W M&P40c (assuming it meets reliability tests)
  • 3" 1911 (not yet owned)
  • SIG P290RS (maybe, or maybe replaced with 3" 1911), possibly only 2-4 times a year, or maybe more often as a backup to one of the others
  • .380 (as backup), very possibly 1911 style but the RM380 is at least as likely
  • Revolver (currently .45LC S&W 625MG, possibly adding a 3" S&W 686 Plus) a few times a year when camping, hiking, or rarely just because (just because is mostly in the winter).

That would be replacing (in no real order): SIG P250 Compact (.45ACP), SIG P290RS, CZ P01, S&W M&P40c (assuming it passes reliability tests), rare but occasionally carried revolver (currently .45LC S&W 625MG, but hope to add a 3" S&W 686 Plus). I plan to add as a rarely used (backup) a .380 (currently I have an LCP, but I hope to replace it soon).

This thread is not meant as an announcement. I'm still trying to decide. Please don't just post "1911", or "stick with simplicity"...Give me reasons why you chose what you chose. There are definite advantages to both choices, and I am still trying to process those advantages to decide what combination is best for me (at this point, it is, as it was before, always open to change). Hearing your reasons for your choice can be helpful. Thank you for your help.
 
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Heavy, low capacity, thumb safety. I like the 1911 and how it shoots, but for carry I prefer lightweight, high capacity, no thumb safety.

I also don't get "carry rotation".
 
You can't practice enough to trust yourself to disengage a safety, but enough to trust your ability to shoot DA/SA?
I'm a 1911 guy, bought a DA/SA to give it a try, put 100 rounds through it and haven't taken it out of the safe, since.
All of the guns I have ever carried are single action, with a thumb safety, so I never have to give a moment's thought to the gun's ready condition, how heavy/light or long/short the trigger pull is, etc.
I'd recommend picking a gun that you shoot well, and sticking to that gun, and guns like it.
 
I also don't get "carry rotation".
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Rotation isn't really the right word, at least for me (it may be for some people). I don't say, "I used X last time, now it is time to use Y". However, I do have a selection of different guns for different needs. Most of the time I pick my SIG P250 Compact. Once I have a few more rounds through it the P01 will join it, and I'll pick between them depending upon whether I'd rather have the 14+1 rounds of 9mm, or 9+1 of.45ACP. Normally, I prefer to go with the biggest I can conceal, hence my usual choice. Once I have it in my hands (it is at the FFL now in the MD mandated waiting period) and have put some rounds through it, I suspect my S&W M&P40c will see the most summer carry when I'm dressed lightly. Now that my philosophy is to carry the biggest I can carry, the P290RS doesn't get much carry use anymore, though I have been thinking about using a backup when I can and I can see it sometimes getting used as a backup. Similarly, the .380 will be only for backup use as I've rarely actually carried a .380 (I don't trust it as a primary caliber). Admittedly, the revolver is just for vanity because I like revolvers, but it doesn't get brought with me on my VA, WV or DE visits very often. If I go ahead and make the switch, the main change will be my S&W 1911SC will take the place of the P250, and a 3" 1911 (probably a .40S&W EMP) will either take the place of, or be used in addition to the P290RS.

You can't practice enough to trust yourself to disengage a safety, but enough to trust your ability to shoot DA/SA?
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I don't get why some people get worked up about DA/SA, it is pretty easy to get used to (and if you aren't perfect with it, your gun will still go bang unlike messing up with a safety). I started with a DA revolver, and my first auto was a DA/SA auto. Several of my current autos are DAO and I currently own several DA revolvers (some of which are DAO). I find that I can shoot the first DA shot just fine. Sure, the transition will make my aimed shots a little further apart. It would matter in competition, but I doubt the 1-2" spread between the first shot and the second shot (both aimed COM) will make a big difference in a self-defense shooting.

I'd recommend picking a gun that you shoot well, and sticking to that gun, and guns like it.
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That is the main reason I'm considering going back to a 1911 even though disengaging the safety under stress is a major training issue. I shoot 1911s and CZ 75B type guns better than anything else. They fit my hand just right, and I get tighter groups. If something else fit my hand and shot better for me, I'd be looking at that.
 
Chaim;

I went through a nearly identical process with respect to carrying my 1911s. My career was the ultimate culprit, along with a new wife just taking up a lot of my practice time.

Fast forward to about 10 years ago. I bought a S&W 1911 SC-E and quickly fell in love with just about everything about it. Being newly divorced and much more settled in my job, I had a lot more free time. Consequently I spent a lot more time both at the range and at home practicing, and my thumb muscle memory came back, to the point that regardless of what I have in the holster, my thumb sweeps the thumb safety off, even when the gun itself has no thumb safety. Except my revolvers. For some reason my thumb seems to know when I've got a revolver in my hand.

Nowadays I mostly carry my Ruger LW Commander 1911 in 9mm, partly for the extra couple rounds and also for just how fast I can shoot the thing accurately. Especially when I shoot 'cold,' or under physical stress. Let me explain.

A few years ago, one of my instructors recommended that I try shooting 'cold' occasionally as a training exercise. What that meant was going to the range and without a warm-up, to shoot two sets of controlled pairs into an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper taped to a standard silhouette target COM, followed by a controlled pair to an index card taped across the 'eyes' of the target at 10 yards. What I found in my case was that I was just much more accurate and quicker with my 1911s vs. either my Shield or my Glock 19. And both of those are pretty accurate guns themselves.

Another recommendation was to physically stress myself before shooting cold. I do this a couple times a month by either going to the gym and doing a hard workout with emphasis on my forearms (taking away a lot of my fine motor control), or simply running a couple miles at a hard pace before shooting. This raises my heart rate and BP, as well as making my hands pretty sweaty and a little shaky. Basically what my body might go through just prior to/during a real engagement, without the mental aspect (haven't figured out how to accomplish that part consistently other than by time constraint).

My 1911s have consistently produced significantly better results over my other carry sidearms under these conditions.

This has led to an important difference in my relative confidence between these guns, and I'm a firm believer that confidence is more important than total number of rounds in a respective magazine. So the Ruger and the S&W SC-E has largely supplanted the other two CCWs in my 'rotation.'
 
I also started thinking about a 10mm and I'd rather have a 10mm 1911 than Glock. That all got me to thinking (always dangerous)...
...The only gun that shoots as well for me is the CZ 75B (and I have added a P01 as a CCW/HD gun).
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If ya like the feel of the CZ, have you looked at the Witness line of pistols made by Tanfoglio? I used to have one in .45, and it was a good gun (only sold it 'cause I needed cash). They make several different sizes and options in 10mm, including compact poly guns, up to a 6" long slide all steel model like the one my brother has- think it holds 14 rounds? And, more to the point, they can be carried in any condition you choose. You can carry it cocked 'n' locked like a 1911, or you can carry with the hammer down and safety off for a double action first shot.

As a bonus you can convert it to .40 by swapping the barrel, mag, & spring, which takes like 3 seconds, so you can practice cheaper if ya don't reload. Can also convert to other rounds by swapping the whole slide.
 
When I first started reading this and noticed you said you were in Maryland, I was thinking how the heck did you get a carry permit. If you only carry 30-40 days as you stated, I would try and keep it simple and stick with something that only requires you to pull the trigger before it goes bang. How often do you practice and what guns do you practice with? We tend to default to what we practice the most with under stressful situations.

On the flip side, I carry a Glock 43 and I rotate the guns I shoot during practical shoots. I shot my Kahr PM9, my Glock 43, my Les Baer TRS (.45), and my Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 (9mm). I know that practice isn't stressful, but I incorporated sweeping the safety down as part of my draw stroke and I did not have any problem at all with disengaging the safety.
 
Has anyone here shot a double-action long gun of any type? Any rifle or shotgun, where it has no manual safety, and can just pull the trigger to make it go bang? Anyone? Does any military on earth use a rifle or machine gun without a safety? Cops? Are there any pheasant shotguns that rely on a long double action trigger pull to keep the gun from firing accidentally without a safety? Does anyone make a New York Glock trigger for a Ruger 10/22?

Because, ya know, I'm drawing a blank there.

Why has this whole "remembering to flip the safety on a handgun" thing ever become an issue in the shooting community? Why are handguns so different that the human mind can't deal with a safety on 'em, yet obviously everyone gets along fine with the safety on a long gun? These questions are partly facetious, and partly serious...
 
the possum said:
Has anyone here shot a double-action long gun of any type? Any rifle or shotgun, where it has no manual safety, and can just pull the trigger to make it go bang? Anyone? Does any military on earth use a rifle or machine gun without a safety? Cops? Are there any pheasant shotguns that rely on a long double action trigger pull to keep the gun from firing accidentally without a safety? Does anyone make a New York Glock trigger for a Ruger 10/22?

Because, ya know, I'm drawing a blank there.

Why has this whole "remembering to flip the safety on a handgun" thing ever become an issue in the shooting community? Why are handguns so different that the human mind can't deal with a safety on 'em, yet obviously everyone gets along fine with the safety on a long gun? These questions are partly facetious, and partly serious...
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Great points that I have made on numerous occasions myself! I've never understood the 'issue', especially nowadays when folks are tweeting, taking selfies, texting, sexting, updating their facebook status, answering the phone, playing a game, and reading a book, all while driving and singing along with the radio. And yet, somehow, the act of disengaging a one click safety with your thumb is more than so many folks aren't even willing to try for fear of blanking on it when the SHTF. Go figure.:rolleyes:



I've been shooting 1911s since my dad started me on them as a kid 45+ years ago, and I've carried them professionally and for personal protection for over 30 of those years. It's my favorite platform even though I've had to carry other guns at times, revolvers and autos, the 1911 has always been m y personal favorite/go to gun. I'm very comfortable with the 1911 and compete with them in addition to carrying them, and I own a bunch of them in different sizes and calibers so I pretty much have one for every occasion. I carry them because I'm so comfortable with them and enjoy them, they point naturally for me, there is no better trigger on a defensive handgun, they are very safe guns to carry, and they are available in a variety of sizes, weights, and calibers. I'm at work in a hospital right now and I'm carrying a custom Springfield LW Champion, it's very easy to conceal and comfortable to carry, has outstanding accuracy, and 100% reliable, it's my regular daily carry gun. I have others I'll carry dependent on circumstances but, more often than not, it's this Springfield. Mag capacity isn't an issue, I came up in LE carrying revolvers, 9 rds of .45 is high capacity to me! Yeah, there are higher capacity guns but they come with the cost of thickness and the loss of the 1911 ergonomics. I'll stick to carry a couple spare mags.


As far as the "carry rotation", like the OP, I have several guns that I carry on different occasions for different reasons. There are four that get the most use - the Springfield I mentioned, a Ruger GP100 Match Champion that I carry when working around our small farm, a custom S&W 360J snubby that is occasionally carried as a BUG or dropped in a pocket when I take the dogs out back, and the fourth is a custom Doublestar 1911 that is my dedicated house gun, it has a rail and wears a light all the time.
 
the possum said:
If ya like the feel of the CZ, have you looked at the Witness line of pistols made by Tanfoglio?
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I have a few times, but I usually forget about them (nothing wrong with them, they just usually aren't in the forefront of my mind). I have looked at them, preferably one of the all metal guns, as both a compact .40 and as a 10mm. While I went to my DA first shot requirement, I did discount them. Sure, they are DA/SA guns like the CZs, but like the CZs (other than decocker models like my P01) they require you to manually lower the hammer. I would consider that, but I'd prefer not to, I know it can be perfectly safe when done right, but I try to be careful about "Murphy's Law" and minimize places where mistakes can occur. If I would carry a CZ or Witness with their usual safety, I'd feel better going cocked and locked. So, if I go 1911 for carry/HD again, it would greatly increase the chances that I'll seriously consider a 10mm Witness.

stephen426 said:
If you only carry 30-40 days as you stated, I would try and keep it simple and stick with something that only requires you to pull the trigger before it goes bang.
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That was part of my original thinking when I switched away from carrying/using for HD my 1911s. However, how many people who carry, whether it is everyday or part-time, have needed to use it for self-defense? That number is pretty low. Hence, my recent thinking that it is about practice, not how often you carry, when determining which MOA is preferable.

How often do you practice and what guns do you practice with? We tend to default to what we practice the most with under stressful situations.
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Practice...drawing? At the range? Taking a full defensive course? Drawing, once in a while (when I carried/used for HD a 1911 it was very often, a few times a week). At the range, some years back it used to be several times a week, now, maybe once a month. A course, 3-4 years ago (prior to that it had been nearly 10 years). If any are scheduled when I can go, I'm considering taking a course with one of the training academies this summer (probably SIG Sauer Academy), and if I can't fit it in with teaching summer school and all the professional development classes I've signed up for over the summer, I'll go with a local trainer.

On most of my range trips, I take 2-3 of my carry guns plus a revolver and maybe one more for fun. Funny, my 1911SC and CZ 75B only get out once or twice a year that way, yet I still usually outshoot my P250 (with which I do fine) when I bring them out.

the possum said:
Why has this whole "remembering to flip the safety on a handgun" thing ever become an issue in the shooting community? Why are handguns so different that the human mind can't deal with a safety on 'em, yet obviously everyone gets along fine with the safety on a long gun?
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For me it was after reading one too many accounts from trainers about students who did fine all day, but when they did one stress drill or another the student then forgot to disengage the safety. I'm also aware that it is simply a matter of training, but when I stopped practicing my draw several times a week and went to more like just a couple/few times a month I made the switch. If I switch back, I'll have to practice my draw a lot more.
 
Oh, I've been mostly just responding to other people's posts. Here is where I'm leaning right now...

So long as I go back to practicing my draw often enough, I see no real practical reason not to go back to the 1911 style for carry. If I do, I'll probably bring my 1911SC with me to my next training class (though 9mm ammo is much cheaper for a class that burns up at least hundreds, and sometimes 1000 or more rounds, so maybe I'd go with my full size CZ 75B and use it cocked and locked). Since I shoot 1911s better than anything but my CZs (which I shoot as well as, not better than, a 1911), that is a strong reason to consider that extra practice time.

That said, probably the biggest thing keeping me from doing so is a combination of money and emotion (the same kind of emotional decision that made me start thinking about carrying 1911s again). I have a good selection of guns that I have for carry. Even just going with what I have shot enough to trust 100%, my .45ACP P250 Compact, P290RS, LCP (though I don't really like it), my 625MG, and two of my snubs (which I never carry anymore but could be good as backup guns) give me a pretty well rounded selection. Once my P01 and M&P40c have enough rounds through them (the P01 will probably be today if I can get to the range in the next 30min or so) it will be an even better selection. I've put a lot of time, thought and money into developing that set of choices.

If I start carrying my 1911SC again, I don't really have a use for my P250 Compact. The P250 only carries one more round than the 1911SC, and the 1911 is much thinner (thus easier to carry with my preferred IWB tucked carry style). The weight is only a few oz different (3 or 4), a good IWB holster and a good belt makes that tough to even notice. The only thing the P250 really has over my 1911SC (if I decide that I'm fine with a manual safety again) is night sights, and that can easily be remedied on the 1911. Well, other than price, which would matter if I was buying them now, but I already have both. I like my P250C, and I've put some time into learning it. I would probably keep it as a range toy, and I may keep it for home defense (at 3am I prefer a long DA trigger to a SA with safety and always have- when I did carry the 1911SC I sometimes used it for HD, but usually had a revolver ready to go). However, I don't want too long a list of CCW options, I want one for all occasions, but otherwise I want to keep it simple. That's one example, the P290RS, if replaced by a 3" 1911, has even less reason to stay (other than I really like that gun). I would definitely trade either the P290 or P250 on a 3" 1911 (the P250 has more practical reasons to stay if I go back to 1911s but I like the P290 better).

On the other hand, I've been looking at 1911s online (and I'll definitely have to handle some at the range/gun store later today) and I really do want a compact 1911 or two. I really love that design. And like I said many times, I shoot 1911s and CZs better than anything else. I should, I have 10s of thousands of rounds through them from the years that they were my main autos (and when ammo was cheap and I'd go to the range two or three times a week with several hundred rounds per trip), it will take a while for other guns to catch up.

Take out the emotional connection to what I have, and I probably will make the switch. Like I said, I have 10s of thousands of rounds through the 1911, the only other platforms with a similar round count are medium framed revolvers and my CZ 75B. Add in how well the CZ and 1911 fit me, and I can shoot them quite well (even after a too long hiatus). The emotional reasons to stick with what I have are more or less equaled by my emotional connection to the 1911, and my proficiency with a 1911 and CZ put them over. A 4" 1911, a 3" 1911, my CZ P01 (when I want capacity), the M&P40c, a revolver (mostly as a woods gun), and a .380 and maybe the P290 as occasional backups will give me something for all my needs and be a pretty good carry/HD selection.
 
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Oh, if I do make the switch, I guess I need either a new holster or a new belt (or both). My holster for the 1911SC is a Galco Skyops. They require a 1 1/4" belt. My only belt that width is a regular department store dress belt (which I never wear since I prefer the sturdier gun belt even when I'm not carrying). My gun belts are 1 1/2". So, I need a 1 1/4" gun belt, or a Commander sized 1911 holster that fits a larger belt, or both. I guess I can start practicing drawing while using my dept store dress belt, and by the time I'm ready to carry it, I can have either (or both) the new holster and/or belt.
 
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