Huntsville man finds out his antique shotgun/pistol illegal under 1934 law

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smince

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http://blog.al.com/breaking/2009/10/post_41.html

Huntsville man finds out his antique shotgun/pistol illegal under 1934 law
By Victoria Cumbow
October 11, 2009, 6:42AM

HUNTSVILLE, AL -- When 81-year-old Carl Craig walked into Madison Guns & Ammo Tuesday, he didn't know the gun he was carrying was an illegal weapon.

Craig had a .410 gauge pistol, made sometime in the late 1920s or early 1930s.

"The reason it is illegal is that it's a handgun that fires a shotgun shell," said David Hyche, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms resident agent in Huntsville and Birmingham.

The gun was handed down to Craig by his father about 60 years ago, but it's been kept in a box for most of that time. Earlier last week, Craig decided to have it appraised.

"It's a pretty unusual weapon," he said. "It's a shotgun, but it's a pistol."

After putting the gun's information into the computer system at Madison Guns, the store was notified the weapon was illegal, requiring the store to hold it until local ATF officers could inspect the gun.

While Craig didn't understand how the store could legally keep his personal property, he left without his gun. The next morning, he met with local ATF officers at the store to find out what the law said about his gun.

Tim Knox, owner of Madison Guns, said he had no choice but to confiscate the gun and contact the ATF once the computer said it was an illegal weapon.

"I could lose my federal firearms license, be fined up to $125,000 and go to prison for five years," Knox said. "My salesman could've been arrested, and Mr. Craig could've been arrested."

ATF's Hyche said Knox was correct in holding the gun, and ATF agents in Huntsville worked with Craig to make sure he could keep the gun.

To make this particular gun legal requires one of two things, Hyche said. Craig could have the gun rifled - have grooves cut into the barrel - or he could have the gun disassembled.

Before Craig left Madison Guns Wednesday, the gun was disassembled, and he was able to take the heirloom back home.

In 1934, the National Firearms Act outlawed short-barreled shotguns. Technically, Craig's antique gun is illegal under the law, but Hyche said the ATF's concern was figuring out a way to let Craig keep it.

"This happens all the time," he said. "We don't want (the gun) destroyed or take it away from the family."

He said it's common that people are left guns like this when family members die, and the best thing to do is contact the ATF.

"We don't want to charge any of those people," Hyche said. "We almost always find a way to accommodate the person."
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Since the gun was made before 1934, would the law really be enforceable? It would either be an ex post facto law, or a violation of the Takings Clause in the 5th Amendment.
 
Since the gun was made before 1934, would the law really be enforceable?
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You bet it is. Otherwise, every machinegun made before 1986 would be exempt from the machinegun ban.

Notice the one thing the ATF agent didn't say could be done to make it legal? Register it as a SBS. Cannot register after the fact.
 
Hmmm...I find this odd. Doesn't the Taurus Judge shoot .410 shells. Yes I know the pistol has a rifled barrel. But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel? It's a still a shotgun shell.:rolleyes: Poor guy...comes to have it appraised only to take it home in a box in pieces:(
 
Hmmm...I find this odd. Doesn't the Taurus Judge shoot .410 shells. Yes I know the pistol has a rifled barrel. But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel? It's a still a shotgun shell. Poor guy...comes to have it appraised only to take it home in a box in pieces
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Taurus Judge has a rifled barrel. That makes all the difference (even tho' it is only minimally rifled.)
 
But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel?
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Rifled barrel makes it a handgun by definition. A smooth barrel makes is a shotgun by defnition. The barrel length <18" and/or overall length <26" makes it an unregistered short barreled shotgun per the National Firearm Act of 1934.

BTW, the Taurus Judge is technically chambered for the .45 Long Colt cartridge.
 
Hmmm...I find this odd. Doesn't the Taurus Judge shoot .410 shells. Yes I know the pistol has a rifled barrel. But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel? It's a still a shotgun shell.
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The primary difference is that the Judge does have a rifled barrel and also fires pistol ammo (.45 Colt). If it had been chambered for only a shotgun round with a smooth bore, it would be illegal as a short-barreled-shotgun.

Mr. Craig probably had some form of pistol often called an "Auto Burglar" similar to the Ithaca 20ga model below. These were popular in the 20's & 30's until the NFA made them illegal without registration. They were more popular in 28-ga and .410 than in 20ga.

Ithaca_autoburglar_20.gif


The most amazing part of this story is the cooperation Mr. Craig received from the local ATF agent, David Hyche. It is usually the ATF that forces surrender of such weapons as a violation of the '34 NFA. Mr. Hyche should receive letters commending his actions in finding a way for Mr. Craig to keep a valuable collector's gun.

Especially in these hard times, if Mr. Craig can work out a way of legally transferring the gun to a museum or collector, he'll benefit and so will someone else.

Of course, we should keep a vigil eye out for a follow-up story where Hyche's bosses decide to raid Mr. Craig's house and prosecute him at a later date.
 
Bill,

More than likely it was a Handi-Gun or Game-Getter. Auto and Burglar guns were mostly in 20ga, from the catalogs I've seen. :)
 
Ithaca Auto & Burglar guns were only made in 20 &28 ga. It was probably an H&R Handy Gun or similar.
Disassembly would not make the gun legal, under federal law-unless the barrel was destroyed.
And if the gun without a barrel is not a "firearm," could one get a SBS tax stamp and "make" it a SBS after installing the barrel? I know it originall falls in the AOW category, but could it be "remade" as an SBS? I have seen Handy Guns registered as SBS, rather than AOW. Perhaps this is why?
 
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Disassembly would not make the gun legal, under federal law-unless the barrel was destroyed.
And if the gun without a barrel is not a "firearm," could one get a SBS tax Ithaca Auto & Burglar guns were only made in 20 &28 ga. It was probably an H&R Handy Gun or similar.
stamp and "make" it a SBS after installing the barrel? I know it originall falls in the AOW category, but could it be "remade" as an SBS? I have seen Handy Guns registered as SBS, rather than AOW. Perhaps this is why?
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You might be on to something there...:D
 
I would like to see this gun shop computer system that knows something is an illegal weapon, only a contact to the ATF with serial number check could tell if it had been properly registered.

This story is full of mis information.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Ithaca Auto & Burglar guns were only made in 20 &28 ga. It was probably an H&R Handy Gun or similar.
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I think you're right. I'm relying on aging memory of something that was nearly extinct before my time. Except for the single example of an Ithaca 28ga Auto Burglar I once examined. Kind of a fun "little" gun.

PTK - The 20 gauge was certainly popular but I seem to recall someone saying the 28ga was more practical for the purpose. Either one would scrape a carjacker off the running boards of the cars back then.
 
Tim Knox, owner of Madison Guns, said he had no choice but to confiscate the gun


I have a lot of problems with this statement. Unless old Tim is a cop, what he did was stealing.
 
Tim Knox, owner of Madison Guns, said he had no choice but to confiscate the gun
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I have a lot of problems with this statement. Unless old Tim is a cop, what he did was stealing.
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And illegal transfer of an NFA item, possession of an unregistered NFA item, etc.

Tim's pretty dumb.
 
The outcome of the story is good, but the gunstore guy did't give a rip snort about the old man. He didn't have to "know" about who had it. He could have told the old man to get it out of his store and then to contact ATF himself.

I heard of a Handy-Gun showing up at a estate clean up before an auction a few years ago. The auctioneer would not even come on the place with his equipment untill it was removed. Reserch was done, and a family member removed the fireing pin and welded the action shut. It now hangs on his wall in a shadow box in memory of his grandfather. No laws are broken and a family treasure is in a place of honor as it should be. The ATF was not called, but if they find and check this gun it has been made unfireable. It was done in a manner that left it appear untouched unless it is removed from the glass case and turned over.
 
Reserch was done, and a family member removed the fireing pin and welded the action shut. It now hangs on his wall in a shadow box in memory of his grandfather. No laws are broken and a family treasure is in a place of honor as it should be. The ATF was not called, but if they find and check this gun it has been made unfireable.
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You would have to ask the ATF if welding the action shut is sufficient to keep someone out of jail.

They might say no.

Firearms that are Machine guns, violate the NFA, are pure poison. You just don't know if the ATF wants to make you the evil poster child of the year and nail your hide to the wall, or not.

You can find the threads, David Olofson went to jail because the AR15 he lent out, malfunctioned and doubled. The ATF took the position that it was a machine gun. The owner got 30 months in jail. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68590

The ATF has gone after people with semi auto's that doubled because the free floating firing pin hit a sensitive commerical primer.
 
I don't think there is anything the store could have done if the man took his own property out of the store other than call it in. The store staff are not law enforcement officers and do not have the legal power to "confiscate" anyone's property. Just because a federal agency asks that they do that doesn't make it truly legal.
 
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