HP bullet performance ??

R

RAfiringline

New member
One of the things I like about guns and shooting is that there’s plenty of complications to work through.

I've watched number of “Shooting the Bull” YouTube videos on hollow point expansion tests, but I found the one that is linked just below raising a few questions in my mind. In that video, he showed how a 9mm HP bullet from a reputable company behaved in expansion depended on barrel length.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeVtwmHeRZQ
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...m-ammo-quest-speer-gold-dot-g2-147-grain-jhp/

Assuming gel does replicate the human body well enough, are HP rounds likely to perform at real-life shooting distances, like they do at the distances used in test labs? If how they perform is so dependant on barrel length, then distance to target should be important, too (I think).

If velocity is the main thing, does barrel length effect overwhelm distance from target effect (1, 5, 10, 20, 30 feet)?

Too slow (short barrel and/or too much distance) and you don't get expansion - same results as a FMJ RN.

Too fast (long barrel and/or too close) and you might get fragmentation of the bullet with loss of effectiveness.

Can a good HP round only be expected to expand the way it does in these lab tests at a fairly small span of shooting distance for given cartridge and bullet and barrel length?

This stuff has really got me wondering. :D
 
…and it gets more complicated than that. The thing that started the FBI looking at different calibers was the failure of a properly placed shot with a properly expanded bullet to stop one of the bad guys in the 1986 Florida shoot out. It's expansion raised its ballistic drag so much it stopped short of the BG's heart. Had it gone in from the front, it would have worked fine, but because it was from the side and through part of an arm on the way in, it lacked penetration. It was a case where, if the nose had clogged with enough clothing to cause it to fail to expand, so it penetrated like an FMJ, it would actually have been more effective.

That's takes you to the long and the short of it, really. Modern designs penetrate better and expand more reliably than in 1986, but in a more controlled (not so big they stop too soon) way. At least, with Hydra-Shok and other high end designs that's apparently the case as demonstrated with gelatin tests and clothed gelatin block tests. The assumption is that a better trade-off between expansion and penetration has been identified and met.

The reality is the ideal design trade-offs vary for every shot taken from every barrel, and the designers of a bullet hope they've hit an average value that is good enough for the majority of situations. The truly ideal bullet for any given gun and shot angle and point o impact would be one custom designed for that exact shot. The Transformer bullet that automatically changes shape based on where it sees it is going and how fast it will impact has yet to be devised.
 
The Transformer bullet that automatically changes shape based on where it sees it is going and how fast it will impact has yet to be devised
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I'm working on it as we speak--I'm calling it the nano-smart bullet. The hard part is teaching the bullet to know how much propellant it needs and adjust in real time to target type and distance. Once I get that solved I'll work on auto-guidance. The only downside is once I perfect this I will run out of excuses for poor shooting.
 
While ammo today is far better than it used to be even the best designed bullet won't make up for poor shot placement. Even with ammo from the 1990's if you make a good hit you will still get decent results. Most of my defensive ammo is a few years old but I have faith in it when it comes to stopping a threat, especially if I put the bullet where it counts. Far too many people are looking for the magic bullet that will stop just about anything from any distance no matter where the bullet hits. Best of my knowledge that bullet is still waiting to be created.
 
I'm acquainted with a guy who was close to the post shooting analysis on the Dade Co. deal. He says the bullet came in through the RIGHT side, penetrated both lungs, and stopped short of the heart. More than a quart of blood had congealed in the right lung, and that would have killed him, but not soon enough.
I personally believe that MOST of the hoopla over the new ammo is sales pitch.
I've done a bit of testing between the Rem. 124 gr. Golden Saber, and the copper jacketed 124 gr. JHP that preceded it, and my results actually favor the earlier design.
I've been shooting and doing my own testing for 54 years now. My conclusion is that when you're trying to make a bad guy stop doing bad things, you have to keep poking holes in him until that happens.
 
I've done a bit of testing between the Rem. 124 gr. Golden Saber, and the copper jacketed 124 gr. JHP that preceded it, and my results actually favor the earlier design.
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Through water or wet newspaper? Without a calibrated medium, any test results are pretty worthless. Which Golden Saber are you talking about, the bonded bullet or the brass jacketed bullet?
 
There is internal ballistics, external ballistics, and terminal ballistics. Internal is what happens before the bullet leaves the barrel, external is what happens while thr projectile is travelling through the air, and terminal ballistics are what happens inside the target.

Barrel length effects muzzle velocity greatly, the bullet traveling through the air does not slow it as much as you'd think, ballistic coefficient is a bullets shape relating to drag and loss of speed due to friction from the air.

Even .45acp fmj loads I believe only lose about 50-75fps from 0-100yds. Which really is nothing. Hollow points nowadays are designed around a specific velocity range, depending on caliber and purpose. So if for example let's say a .40 S&W load is a 180gr bullet at 1000fps. We will say it is a hollow point load with a HP designed to expand in the 900-1100 fps range. If the bullet only loses 75fps at 100yds from the original muzzle velocity, the bullet SHOULD still be within its expansion range to work properly.

Now it isn't a perfect world and things don't work how they should all the time. Hell a deer can live for several minutes and run a good ways with a 1" hole through its heart.

For me and pistol carry ammuntion. I prefer more penetration over expansion. I carry hollow points, but tough ones that show deep penetration in testing. The expansion is just a bonus. A hole that goes all the way through is best, loss of blood and blood pressure.
 
Unclenick...very well said...there just isn't a magic bullet for all LEO and homeowner use. One shot stops with a handgun are problematic at best.
The reality is the ideal design trade-offs vary for every shot taken from every barrel, and the designers of a bullet hope they've hit an average value that is good enough for the majority of situations. The truly ideal bullet for any given gun and shot angle and point o impact would be one custom designed for that exact shot. The Transformer bullet that automatically changes shape based on where it sees it is going and how fast it will impact has yet to be devised.
Click to expand...
Rod
 
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