How you make sure die closed to shell holder in full length sizing?

H

HankC1

New member
I have Lee Challenger press which does not cam over, from time to time, I would get a hard to size case, if I don't check, the die may not fully close to shell holder and I would have chambering problem. Is there a easy way to make sure die close to shell holder instead of checking it visually? Yes, I do add 1/4 - 1/2 turn when I set up the sizing die. Presses cam over like RCBS probably can go by feel, but Lee press does not cam over!:(
 
Hank,
Unlike some presses the Lee won't allow you to "cam over" due to the way the linkage is set up. Because the press is made of aluminum it would fail quickly with the stress that camming over would place on it.
I would imagine that you have adjusted your die with the ram at the top of its stroke but if not do that and then as you say screw the die in at least a full turn.

Make sure your dies are clean and polished. You can disassemble and clean them in mineral spirits - sold as paint thinner in the hardware store and use soft brushes or cotton tipped swabs to get into the tight places. Lube them lightly with a light mineral oil; 3 in 1, ATF or even baby oil (unscented).

Be sure to use adequate lube on your cases and you might try sizing them as well as you can and then lower the ram and turn your cartridge a half turn and resize it again.

The best solution is the most expensive and that would be to invest in a better press. RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme can be found new for as little as $139 on sale. I would advise you to stay with single station presses rather than going to progressive at this point. I don't like the "lock-n-Load" because they are not as strong (with half the threads cut away they are weaker than full threads) or turret presses because they have play in them. (if there was no play then you couldn't turn the turret).

If there is a press as strong or stronger than the Rock Chucker at a better price I haven't seen it.
 
[QUOTE
If you notice that your Lee Die does not appear to push the shoulder of your case back, ensure that you are adjusting the die so that there is no daylight between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die during the sizing process. If you see daylight at the top of the stroke, readjust the die downward and repeat sizing until it disappears. If your case is still difficult to chamber, you can send the die back to us with a sized case and we can modify the die to minimum SAAMI specifications.http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/127/73/full-length-die-adjustment [/QUOTE]

Just turn FL die down more.
 
It is not die not turned down enough, it is some cases (I pick up brass at range) take more force to form. I just finished a batch of 308s and some are pretty hard to form (several were PPUs). I basically had to visually see if the die close completely to shell holder if a brass take extra effort and some times had to use more case lube and size again. For presses cam over, I probably can feel if the die fully closed and cam over, but not Lee press. Just wonder if there is any trick.
 
I don't believe there is much, if any, advantage to "cam over". Visualize a piston in an engine and the piston goes "over top dead center". That's all cam over is, the ram is going up to "center", apex, limit of upward travel, then going down. If the press uses a solid stop, there will not be a lot of variation...
 
No experience with the Challenger press but a couple things I'd recommend is a good case lube, foremost, and firm pressure on the press handle at the end of each stroke. You need to turn your sizing die in toward the shellholder with enough pressure to take all the slop or looseness out of the press linkages. I highly recommend case gauges to measure how much you are pushing shoulders back. You may not need firm contact for the case to properly chamber in your rifle. I recommend Hornady's Headspace Gauge set and I do like the RCBS Precision Mic although it's a little expensive.
 
Now I don't have that press but it is as simple as screw the die down even more and use more force .

Presses have flex/deflection not only in the press body but in the linkage as well .

Here is an example of that deflection

This is a Hornady press with the die screwed down to where it touches the shell holder before sizing

SN05Kz.jpg


Here is that same press with out moving the die when sizing a case

h3j3Nj.jpg


Notice the gap that is now present in between the die and shell holder . This is because the press and or linkage flexed or deflected when a large strain was introduced upon it . To over come that flex you need to screw the die down more and force the die and shell holder to make contact . very slick lube will be very helpful .

Another thing to look for is that the press is mounted sold to where the whole thing moves as little as possible when sizing . If it's bending/moving on the bench then you will be unable to force the case high enough into the die because the whole press starts to move rather then staying solid and all the energy being transferred to the ram .
 
Seems to me that if you set the sizing die to touch the shell holder on the hardest to size case, it will also touch the shell holder on the easiest to size case and all cases will get fully sized. What am I missing here?
 
you can send the die back to us (Lee) with a sized case and we can modify the die to minimum SAAMI

How about a RCBS small base die for the range brass?
 
Using range brass. If it's once fired from the guy next to you that doesn't reload that's OK . Other then that, how would you know if it's left from someone who bumped the cases from the last go round on reloads? Hard sizing on brass from other rifles, Chambers could be wider causing cases to expand more. As hobbits posted, set up with that case, how do you clean your brass? Don't be cheap with the lube, a stuck case is a pain in the butt. Are you sizing for a bolt or semi?
 
Setup your die to bump the shoulder back .002 or .003

Hornady makes a micrometer clamp on and shoulder adaptors for the various cartridges for that purpose.

Hard cam over causes cases to break at the base.
 
Are you sizing for a bolt or semi?
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I was sizing using my bolt gun to check. The rifle chamber is cut to the tight side, so I know if it chambers, all my other 308s will be fine. A good portion of the hard to form brass were PPUs. I use Hornady Unique case lub.
 
Did you understand what i was saying about press deflection ?
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It is not press deflection, I have the die turned down far enough, just some cases take high force to form. If I press the handle real hard, the die will close to shell holder, but I won't know unless I physically check if there is a gap. Now I visually check the gap if a case is hard to form and I took the brass out, lube more and size again if I encounter a real tough one. It slow me down but better than a stuck case or find out at the range that a round won't chamber. Just wonder if there is a smarter way.
 
HankC1
Never used PPU brass, never had a problem looks that. I have the Rockchucker single stage press, once the die bottoms out on the shell holder as long as there lubed that's it. I once had a stuck case do to not enough lube, only happens once. Once I feel resistance I'll lower and add a little lube. I use RCBS lube, l use my fingers to apply on case & neck. I'm a bench rest shooter, 30 rounds max.
 
I'm still having a hard time understanding what the problem is . OK I understand but don't know how you can't feel the press stop . You should be able to feel the press make the hard stop when the shell holder and die make contact . If it just slowly comes to a stop then they have not hit each other . I whached how the press works and it appears it actually does not have a stop . The stop is the shell holder hitting the die . The thing I see with that is if the die is high in the press you'll need to lower the arm very low and loose torque/leverage on the ram . If you were to screw the die down one or two more full turns the handle would not need to go down as far and you could exert more force on the handle with less effort .
 
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The Challenger does have a stop built into the linkage, but what Metal god said about turning the die down is still true if you turn it down enough for the shell holder to touch the die before the linkage hits the stop while sizing one of the hard to size cases. Now, whether or not the press can handle that much pressure long term might be a consideration, I don’t know. I think double sizing the tough ones is a good approach, but double sizing a lot of cases might be a little tedious. Another alternative is to toss the PPU brass in a bucket and use it to swap brass with another reloader or save it until you get a more robust press.
 
I have Lee Challenger press which does not cam over, from time to time, I would get a hard to size case, if I don't check, the die may not fully close to shell holder and I would have chambering problem. Is there a easy way to make sure die close to shell holder instead of checking it visually? Yes, I do add 1/4 - 1/2 turn when I set up the sizing die. Presses cam over like RCBS probably can go by feel, but Lee press does not cam over!
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I have no fewer than 30 presses, a few of them are 'GORILLOS' when it comes to sizing a case; problem, digging cases out of the sizing die slows me down. I have also shoved cases into chambers with modified presses, again, removing the cases took time.

And then there is the reloader; there is something about the case a reloader does not understand, the case has resistance to sizing. I have cases that have so much resistance to sizing they refused to be sized. When that happens the top of the press flexes and spreads from the bottom of the press. When I want to know if the case won or the case won I use a feeler gage to measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die.

I know, most of you are confused but if the reloader adjust the die down to the shell holder with the ram up with an additional 1/2 turn of the die after contact to create a gap the press must spread .0357".

And then there is cam over; I have cam over presses, all of my Herter presses are cam over presses; when adjusting my cam over presses I use a different method/technique. When finished no one can tell the difference between cases that were sized on a (bump press) cam over press and a non cam over press. My Rock Chucker presses are non cam over presses; for me:eek: not a problem, My Rock Chucker presses lock up, jam-up or go into a bind, the one thing my Rock Chuckers will not do is cam over.

Problem with Rock Chuckers?: It is not the press, it is the owner of the RC, there is no way to get them to shove themselves away from the key board, they will not take the time to look under the table to check what is happening when the ram is raised. One day panic set in; a reloader made a video of a ram in a Rock Chucker being raised; it became one of those "and then" moments, the ram did not cam over, it kicked forward:confused: not one single reloader thought about it but if the ram kicked forward at the top it had to kick back at the bottom. All they did was jump on their keyboards and started typing.

Anyhow, I have made shop calls, I have found presses that were so tightly wound I could not understand why they did not explode. I have friends that are hard headed, if there was such a thing as a reloader abusing a press their presses would be taken away from them. I have a strain gage, I could place it in a press to determine the amount of effort necessary to spread the top of the press from the bottom; I have no interest in abusing a press or gage.

Most reloaders believe the use of a feeler gage is a joke when adjusting a die to the shell holder, again, it is not easy to pry a reloader from the keyboard. And then there is lube, most of my case sizing can be done with any old lube but when it gets to the tuff sizing of cases I use a no-name lube.

F. Guffey
 
You know I was just thinking the opposite may be true as well . Because I don't know where the arm/handle stops . If the die is screwed down WAY to far you also may not get enough leverage . I do this for my universal decapping die so I don't have to actuate the handle as much and the fact I'm just popping out primers I don't need much force .
 
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