how to zero-in a pistol?
- Thread starter exan
- Start date
So we shouldn't bother sighting in our handguns? I agree with the statement that most guns are capable of shooting smaller groups than most shooters, but if the gun is capable of 2" groups, and the gun/shooter combination is capable of 4" groups, and those 4" groups are centered 6" higher than the point of aim, it would be good to know that and make appropriate adjustments, no?
To the OP: I don't think there are great tricks involved, or if there are I've never known of them or needed them. Obviously, use the ammo, whether factory or handloaded, that you expect to use in the gun and put your target at the range that you're interested in being zeroed for. I like to use "real" targets - i.e., the NRA-endorsed targets at the distance they're designed for (B-2 target at 50', B-16 at 25 yds, etc.). If you can, do it at a range that has a bench of some sort, ideally at a height that will allow you to sit down. Find a sandbag or some other sort of firm cushion and rest the butt of the gun on it and take extra care to sight properly and use good trigger technique. Adjust the sights to move the point-of-impact to point-of-aim.
Then, repeat with the stance and hold you expect to be using when actually firing the gun (different for, say, a defensive gun vs. a match target pistol) and check to be sure you're still sighted in - the gun will recoil differently when it's not being rested, and that can affect the point-of-impact. Adjust again if and as necessary.
To the OP: I don't think there are great tricks involved, or if there are I've never known of them or needed them. Obviously, use the ammo, whether factory or handloaded, that you expect to use in the gun and put your target at the range that you're interested in being zeroed for. I like to use "real" targets - i.e., the NRA-endorsed targets at the distance they're designed for (B-2 target at 50', B-16 at 25 yds, etc.). If you can, do it at a range that has a bench of some sort, ideally at a height that will allow you to sit down. Find a sandbag or some other sort of firm cushion and rest the butt of the gun on it and take extra care to sight properly and use good trigger technique. Adjust the sights to move the point-of-impact to point-of-aim.
Then, repeat with the stance and hold you expect to be using when actually firing the gun (different for, say, a defensive gun vs. a match target pistol) and check to be sure you're still sighted in - the gun will recoil differently when it's not being rested, and that can affect the point-of-impact. Adjust again if and as necessary.
I use a 2 inch target at 25 yards.
Sight alignment: I set it so that I have the target on top of the sights (the front post and the target forming the letter i).
I try to pick the optimal ammo (price,consistency, purpose) and stick with only one ammo.
I rest both hands when shooting. sometimes, the heel of the pistol touches the rest (just depends on the pistol). Keep a consistent grip. Hold breath when pulling trigger (similar to when I shoot rifle). Hope for the best.
5 shots, adjust sights, 5 shots, adjust sights, ....
Some would suggest to keep the top of the sights in the middle of the target (supposed to work at different distances but you cover half the target. The i sight picture is for a set distance.
Sight alignment: I set it so that I have the target on top of the sights (the front post and the target forming the letter i).
I try to pick the optimal ammo (price,consistency, purpose) and stick with only one ammo.
I rest both hands when shooting. sometimes, the heel of the pistol touches the rest (just depends on the pistol). Keep a consistent grip. Hold breath when pulling trigger (similar to when I shoot rifle). Hope for the best.
5 shots, adjust sights, 5 shots, adjust sights, ....
Some would suggest to keep the top of the sights in the middle of the target (supposed to work at different distances but you cover half the target. The i sight picture is for a set distance.
I don't know if it's "proper technique" or not but I generally just use an informal rest and start at about 10 yards, then 15, and then maybe out to 25. Most handguns won't see any significant difference in elevation at these ranges. I generally shoot a five shot group before making any adjustment. I may adjust windage and elevation both at first if they are pretty far off. Once I start getting closer, I'll work just on windage or elevation alone.
Obviously, you have to be consistent with your aiming point and not try to correct the point of impact by using Kentucky windage. Once a gun is pretty well sighted in, I know it's me if it doesn't stay grouped near the center.
This is for just general shooting and not bullseye competition. A lot of my handguns have fixed sights so it's more a matter of me getting familiar with the gun. Most of the fixed sight handguns seem to be pretty close using the "standard" bullet weight for that caliber.
Obviously, you have to be consistent with your aiming point and not try to correct the point of impact by using Kentucky windage. Once a gun is pretty well sighted in, I know it's me if it doesn't stay grouped near the center.
This is for just general shooting and not bullseye competition. A lot of my handguns have fixed sights so it's more a matter of me getting familiar with the gun. Most of the fixed sight handguns seem to be pretty close using the "standard" bullet weight for that caliber.
For target guns with iron sights, I use the "i" sight picture (which is more commonly called a "6-o'clock hold"). The reason is that the black sights are more easily seen against the white part of the target, rather than getting lost against the black bull. The sights are then adjusted to hit the center of the bull at the distance the gun is used at, rather than the point-of-aim. And, as you suggest, that procedure does limit the gun to use at that set distance, which is fine for a target pistol.
Iron sights on non-target guns, where the background could be anything but most likely not white, are sighted to hit just at the top of the front sight, and for me at least, I do it at 25 yards. Guns with red-dot sights are sighted to hit where the dot's looking, although I know some (not many) guys on my pistol team who sight them for a 6-o'clock hold. There are other ways to set things up, but this works for me.
The importance of proper 'Zero', AKA sight regulation, cannot be overstated.
This works with rifles as well as pistols.
Take your target, preferable a round bullseye type target. Set it out to about 25 yards.
Use the position you intend to shoot............if you are going to shoot standing with two hands, shoot the pistol that way. If you are going to shoot it one handed, shoot it that way, get off the bench unless thats how you intend to shoot the pistol.
Now aim and shoot. Making sure you follow proper shooting fundamentals.
Not three or five rounds but 10........20 would be better. Don't worry about tiny groups however getting them on paper will help quite a bit. If you can't keep them on paper get a bigger target, don't change distances. You are going to do this like you pattern a shotgun.
Now lets say, you shot 20 rounds or so to the best of your ability. Now take the target, draw a line from 12 to 6 o'clock, the another line from 9 to 3 o'clock. You now have your target divided up into 4 quarters.
Count the number of rounds in each quarter. Some will have more hits then others. OK use these numbers to figure out how you want to adjust your sights. If most of the shots are on the left side of the target, move the sights to the right. If you have more at the top half of the target, move the sights down.
Now start all over. Keep doing this until you have an equal number of hits in each quarter. Same number up as down, right as left. Shoot a couple more times to confirm you are centered. The more shots you fire each session the more accurate you zero will be.
Using this method, you get a true zero. You don't have to be a crack shot that can shoot little bitty groups. You just need to keep the shots on paper.
This is another reason I preach the use of Score or Data books for all shooting. If you accurately plot all your calls and hits, you can do the same thing (dividing the target into quarters) and will be able to tell if there is any changes to your zero and why.
This works whether you keep them in the 10 ring and want to move your group to get X's or if you shoot 7-8s and want to center your group which will get more into the 9-10 rings or the center of a combat style target.
Shooting from a rest will give you groups but wont tell you where those groups will be when you are standing on your hind legs.
Take your target, preferable a round bullseye type target. Set it out to about 25 yards.
Use the position you intend to shoot............if you are going to shoot standing with two hands, shoot the pistol that way. If you are going to shoot it one handed, shoot it that way, get off the bench unless thats how you intend to shoot the pistol.
Now aim and shoot. Making sure you follow proper shooting fundamentals.
Not three or five rounds but 10........20 would be better. Don't worry about tiny groups however getting them on paper will help quite a bit. If you can't keep them on paper get a bigger target, don't change distances. You are going to do this like you pattern a shotgun.
Now lets say, you shot 20 rounds or so to the best of your ability. Now take the target, draw a line from 12 to 6 o'clock, the another line from 9 to 3 o'clock. You now have your target divided up into 4 quarters.
Count the number of rounds in each quarter. Some will have more hits then others. OK use these numbers to figure out how you want to adjust your sights. If most of the shots are on the left side of the target, move the sights to the right. If you have more at the top half of the target, move the sights down.
Now start all over. Keep doing this until you have an equal number of hits in each quarter. Same number up as down, right as left. Shoot a couple more times to confirm you are centered. The more shots you fire each session the more accurate you zero will be.
Using this method, you get a true zero. You don't have to be a crack shot that can shoot little bitty groups. You just need to keep the shots on paper.
This is another reason I preach the use of Score or Data books for all shooting. If you accurately plot all your calls and hits, you can do the same thing (dividing the target into quarters) and will be able to tell if there is any changes to your zero and why.
This works whether you keep them in the 10 ring and want to move your group to get X's or if you shoot 7-8s and want to center your group which will get more into the 9-10 rings or the center of a combat style target.
Shooting from a rest will give you groups but wont tell you where those groups will be when you are standing on your hind legs.
A quantitative method to determine where the gun is shooting is always going to be better than guesswork, but there’s a better way to approach target evaluation and sight adjustment that will accomplish the same thing more accurately with less expenditure of ammo.
Start with a large bullseye target, but instead of simply dividing it into quarters create a Cartesian coordinate system with lines at 1” or so. (Outers makes a sighting-in target that has this grid pre-printed for you – they’re commonly available at gun shops). Then, aim at the center and shoot a number of shots – 5 to 10 is probably enough. Then, using your grid and a ruler or just eyeballing, assign an x,y coordinate (in inches) to each shot. You could also skip actually drawing the grid and just measure from your vertical/horizontal lines passing through the center of the bull. So, for example, if the first shot is 2" right and 3” high, its coordinates are 2,3. Shots to the left of, or below, the center get negative numbers, so if the second shot is 3” right and 3” low its coordinates are 2,-3, etc.
Now, after you've collected your data, i.e., the coordinates for each shot, here's what you can do with it: the center (centroid) of the group you’ve just shot, which is the best estimate mathematically of where the gun is actually shooting, is calculated as the average of the x’s, average of the y’s. If that works out to be, say, 3” high and 2” left from the center of the target (which is where you were aiming), then you know you need to adjust your sights to move the impact point 3” down and 2” to the right. You can then repeat the procedure to fine-tune it.
Another benefit of doing this – more so for rifles than pistols – is that you can calculate the average deviation, which is a much better estimate of accuracy (precision, really) than the more commonly used maximum group spread. For each shot, calculate its distance from the center of the group (which you just calculated), and then average those distances. This measurement, which is similar to what the military uses, has the benefits over the max spread method of (1) being less influenced by a single outlier, (2) using all the information available, and (3) not being correlated with the number of shots in the group, i.e., as you add shots to a group the max spread can only increase while the average deviation is free to change in either direction.
Start with a large bullseye target, but instead of simply dividing it into quarters create a Cartesian coordinate system with lines at 1” or so. (Outers makes a sighting-in target that has this grid pre-printed for you – they’re commonly available at gun shops). Then, aim at the center and shoot a number of shots – 5 to 10 is probably enough. Then, using your grid and a ruler or just eyeballing, assign an x,y coordinate (in inches) to each shot. You could also skip actually drawing the grid and just measure from your vertical/horizontal lines passing through the center of the bull. So, for example, if the first shot is 2" right and 3” high, its coordinates are 2,3. Shots to the left of, or below, the center get negative numbers, so if the second shot is 3” right and 3” low its coordinates are 2,-3, etc.
Now, after you've collected your data, i.e., the coordinates for each shot, here's what you can do with it: the center (centroid) of the group you’ve just shot, which is the best estimate mathematically of where the gun is actually shooting, is calculated as the average of the x’s, average of the y’s. If that works out to be, say, 3” high and 2” left from the center of the target (which is where you were aiming), then you know you need to adjust your sights to move the impact point 3” down and 2” to the right. You can then repeat the procedure to fine-tune it.
Another benefit of doing this – more so for rifles than pistols – is that you can calculate the average deviation, which is a much better estimate of accuracy (precision, really) than the more commonly used maximum group spread. For each shot, calculate its distance from the center of the group (which you just calculated), and then average those distances. This measurement, which is similar to what the military uses, has the benefits over the max spread method of (1) being less influenced by a single outlier, (2) using all the information available, and (3) not being correlated with the number of shots in the group, i.e., as you add shots to a group the max spread can only increase while the average deviation is free to change in either direction.
There's no way to "set" a gun for 6:00 hold, unless you know the load, the size of the target, and the distance at which the target will be engaged. If the target is 3", you'd have to sight-in 1.5" above POA for a 6:00 hold. If the target is 6", you'd need to be 3" above POA at the same distance. Change the load and the impact point will change, so you'd have re-sight for that load at the desired distance. Change the distance, and you'd have readjust. It's impractical except for formal target shooting, where the target/distance/load parameters are fixed, or at least determined in advance.
Unless you have a scope that needs to be zeroed, just shoot the gun.
When I used to shoot a lot of different guns we would use the 10yd paper plate rule. If you couldn't keep all the rounds on a paper plate at 10yds there was something wrong with the gun. The exception was if one or more of my friends could keep it on paper, then the you can guess where the problem was.
If a gun passed the 10yd test, then you move the target back to 25yds and start shooting. Make notes on your targets and save them. After a couple hundred rounds patterns will start to appear. Get a friend/s to watch you shoot and to shoot the gun them self to check that it's not shooter error.
With 99% of the handguns I've shot the problems were with the shooter and not the gun.
The exceptions were a Raven .22 sub-compact and European revolver, can't remember the make of that one.
When I used to shoot a lot of different guns we would use the 10yd paper plate rule. If you couldn't keep all the rounds on a paper plate at 10yds there was something wrong with the gun. The exception was if one or more of my friends could keep it on paper, then the you can guess where the problem was.
If a gun passed the 10yd test, then you move the target back to 25yds and start shooting. Make notes on your targets and save them. After a couple hundred rounds patterns will start to appear. Get a friend/s to watch you shoot and to shoot the gun them self to check that it's not shooter error.
With 99% of the handguns I've shot the problems were with the shooter and not the gun.
The exceptions were a Raven .22 sub-compact and European revolver, can't remember the make of that one.
If I read the question right, the OP is asking about making sure the physical sights are set to shoot accurately.
That said, exan, for defensive purposes, you want your gun to shoot POA = POI, or Point of Aim = Point of Impact.
You also need to remember that under most circumstances, . . . beyond 20 or 25 feet different loads will behave differently. They'll all pretty much be OK for anything at 25 or under.
Get either sandbags or heavy socks filled with corn meal. Hold the gun in two hands while you snuggle it down into them so that you can look at the sights and see it not moving.
Also, . . . make sure while you are doing this that you are shooting all the same ammo. Don't mix bullet weights and manufacturer's here.
You will first be shooting at 20 or 25 feet, . . . shooting at a 1 inch white circle on a black background. After 5 shots, . . . take a break, . . . change targets, . . . shoot again, . . . take a break, . . . change targets, . . . shoot again. Compare all three targets. If you are doing everything correctly, all three targets should show very similar placement.
The key is the trend: shooting 3 inches high and 2 to the right??? Reset your sights 3 inches lower and 2 inches to the left. Shoot again. Reset your sights again if needed.
Once you get what you think is a good "Zero" for 20 feet, . . . do it again out at 50 feet, . . . your sights should be as good at 50 as they were for 20. If not, . . . you may need to adjust them again.
The main thing is don't get frustrated, . . . take your time, . . . it'll be worth it in the long run.
May God bless,
Dwight
I don't know of any Professional way to sight in your gun,but I was having issues with my S&W 4566TSW shooting low and left( the other 3 guns were excellent)
I was blaming the gun until I tried one of these to check it
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-SIGHTMARK-4...988?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588c31c504
The sights were dead on..Hmm? Must be the shooter then.
I went back to the range and re-focused on the basics and discovered that the trigger felt enormously different than the other guns and was using too much trigger finger on this gun only...I finally corrected the problem...ME
The bore sighter might be worth a try(maybe even for adjusting the target pistols too)
I was blaming the gun until I tried one of these to check it
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-SIGHTMARK-4...988?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588c31c504
The sights were dead on..Hmm? Must be the shooter then.
I went back to the range and re-focused on the basics and discovered that the trigger felt enormously different than the other guns and was using too much trigger finger on this gun only...I finally corrected the problem...ME
The bore sighter might be worth a try(maybe even for adjusting the target pistols too)
I have found that I tend to "push" the trigger on most new guns.
I have to work on finding the correct grip and feel. I have a laser bore sighter and have used it on all my guns. Not one of them was off such that the sights needed to be moved.
It has always been my problem.
Geetarman
I have to work on finding the correct grip and feel. I have a laser bore sighter and have used it on all my guns. Not one of them was off such that the sights needed to be moved.
It has always been my problem.
Geetarman
It doesn't matter a lot which method you use, as long as you are consistant. And then you note the difference, if any from when you shoot the gun unrested.
Me, I hold the gun in my hands, and rest them, or my forearms on the bag. I don't have any interest in machine rests, because the gun will be in my hands when I shoot it for recreation or something serious, so how well it shoots from a machine rest doesn't matter. How well it shoots in my hands does.
For revolvers, I shoot an entire cylinder. For autos, I generally use a 5 shot group.
Me, I hold the gun in my hands, and rest them, or my forearms on the bag. I don't have any interest in machine rests, because the gun will be in my hands when I shoot it for recreation or something serious, so how well it shoots from a machine rest doesn't matter. How well it shoots in my hands does.
For revolvers, I shoot an entire cylinder. For autos, I generally use a 5 shot group.
If you want to save ammo you can use a laser bore sight first to get a close zero. Sightmark, or firefield makes most common calibers of in-chamber bore sights that work awesome for getting you onto the paper and almost perfectly zeroed in on your windage. Now since the in-chamber bore sight only shows exactly where the barrel is pointing it does not show exact point of impact because it is not able to show the direct path of an actual bullet (bullet rise/drop) so you may have to adjust your elevation slightly on your fine tuning zero. A great tool I use alot and most of the time only have to adjust elevation up a few clicks to get me centered on the live fire.
Rifleman1776
New member
Lots, but not all, of good advice here. Pilpens was probably the most succinct. I would say, keep it simple, apply same principles as when sighting a rifle.
But, with rests, if you are using cloth sandbags and sighting a revolver, do protect the cloth as cylinder side blast will destroy the cloth in short order. A leather protector works just fine.
I prefer a six o'clock hold at 25 yards and 'Kentucky' it for longer ranges. Mostly practice a lot. Upside to practicing a lot is it is fun and will make you a better shooter.
But, with rests, if you are using cloth sandbags and sighting a revolver, do protect the cloth as cylinder side blast will destroy the cloth in short order. A leather protector works just fine.
I prefer a six o'clock hold at 25 yards and 'Kentucky' it for longer ranges. Mostly practice a lot. Upside to practicing a lot is it is fun and will make you a better shooter.
When sighting in any firearm you need to strive for steadiness. Whatever it takes to get the gun steady is fine. I've used sand bags but prefer some sort of rest. I use a HySkore and other handgun rests for handguns and a conventional front rest and rear bag for rifles. Using a rest will tell you how accurate your gun is and will greatly assist you in sighting in.