I'm on a bit of a budget right now (thank you IRS), but I'm still hoping to do a little gun buying. Right now I have my eye on a Topper '88 in 12 Gauge. I'd like to do what I can to help it "get down" with its own bad self. All the ones around town have a fairly long barrel, but are very light weight--maybe too light. Is it possible to shorten it, yet at the same time make it a few pounds heavier, stronger, and easier to use? I might cut the barrel down to 20", but not much shorter. I plan on using it as a truck gun, bedside gun, and perhaps a backup gun for long hikes (though my 1895G is hard to beat). What have you done with your Toppers?
How To Trick Up A Topper?
- Thread starter Cosmoline
- Start date
First off, a 28" bbled Topper, NEF,H&R, Winchester 37,etc, runs about the same length as a 20" bbled riot pump. IOW, I wouldn't bob the bbl.I've shot extremely short singles, and while I found the recoil tolerable, blast is a total %^&*.
I've seen(and told here) of entering a gun shop to see an almost new NEF 10 ga, trimmed to 18" and camoed,butt cuffed, sling swivels etc. It was a consignment item, only shot a few times. For full bore 10 ga loads, I'd want at least a 10 lb shotgun, 11 is better. This one was less than 7. There's a message there.
Golfers have a lead tape to weight up their clubs. Bob Brister, in his masterpiece work, mentions using this as a way to weight up a shotgun, or to improve the balance and swing. Some singles have enough room between the forearm and bbl to add some of this, or sheet lead for a few oz.
Stick a layer of tape there, add a couple of oz of shot wrapped up and secured in the stock bolt cavity, install a good recoil pad and work on your technique, and you'll be alright.
I've seen(and told here) of entering a gun shop to see an almost new NEF 10 ga, trimmed to 18" and camoed,butt cuffed, sling swivels etc. It was a consignment item, only shot a few times. For full bore 10 ga loads, I'd want at least a 10 lb shotgun, 11 is better. This one was less than 7. There's a message there.
Golfers have a lead tape to weight up their clubs. Bob Brister, in his masterpiece work, mentions using this as a way to weight up a shotgun, or to improve the balance and swing. Some singles have enough room between the forearm and bbl to add some of this, or sheet lead for a few oz.
Stick a layer of tape there, add a couple of oz of shot wrapped up and secured in the stock bolt cavity, install a good recoil pad and work on your technique, and you'll be alright.
I like the tape idea. That, plus perhaps a heat shield and big tactical light on the front and some lead weight in the back should add about two or three pounds. I'm looking to load it with low-recoil buckshot most of the time, NOT magnum loads or anything close to 10 gauge. As far as the blast, why is a 20" single so much worse than a 20" pump? Is it something that can be fixed?
The Brits,back when they still had some cojones, devised the Rule of 96, which stated that a shotgun should be 96 times the weight of the shot charge.Much lighter, too much recoil, much heavier, you're carrying too much weight.
Some 12 ga singles run as light as 5 3/4 lbs. An oz of shot means a 6 lbs gun, and so on. That's why a 20 ga single will kicker harder than a 20 ga pump.
Some 12 ga singles run as light as 5 3/4 lbs. An oz of shot means a 6 lbs gun, and so on. That's why a 20 ga single will kicker harder than a 20 ga pump.
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
Cut the stock and add a Pachmayr recoil pad to where it fits you good. Fill the bolt hole on the stock with shot. Lop of bbl and re-install bead. Be sure to adhere to Over All Length and Bbl Length lengths.
That's what I want to do to a 20 one of these days anyway.
That's what I want to do to a 20 one of these days anyway.
The Rule of 96 evolved during the heyday of the Empire, but was intended for sporting arms.
The Martini variant that made up the majority of Brit military shotguns was mostly issued to native troops and police. It was a 14 ga bottleneck case round,usually loaded with buck, that fit no other guns. The idea was that these could not be used to liberate India and were inferior to the Army rifle. The memories of the Mutiny in the 1850s ran deep.
The Martini variant that made up the majority of Brit military shotguns was mostly issued to native troops and police. It was a 14 ga bottleneck case round,usually loaded with buck, that fit no other guns. The idea was that these could not be used to liberate India and were inferior to the Army rifle. The memories of the Mutiny in the 1850s ran deep.
I mentioned a former co worker on the "Serious" Ammo who was both a flaming bigot and survivalist. He said he kept 11,000 rounds on hand.
He was also a bit of an innovator, and did a single shot project gun on a NEF/H&R 20 ga for a truck and scouting gun.
The bbl got bobbed and swage choked,IIRC. A good recoil pad went on a shortened stock, and the stock was also customized with a port,showing the end of the stock bolt and lightening the weapon and restoring the balance lopping the bbl had ruin't. Both metal and wood were refinished with low shine finishes,and the bead was filed to zero with his load of choice. I think it was sighted in with slugs, but it's been a long while.
Since we both were instructors, he brought it to the range for a showoff and some shooting. While I doubt it weighed more than say, 5 1/2 lbs, it carried like a wand and shot well at hand thrown(Frisbee style) clays.It was muzzle light, so a steady and controlled swing took work.
A nice project, for a shotgun to be carried lots and shot little.However, with the exception of the stock fit, I see little that the same shotgun ,absolutely unaltered, would have done just as well.
If I were to run into a beater Winchester 37, a classic H&R, etc, and wanted a truck/scouting/survival/turkey gun,I'd leave the bbl long, concentrate on getting a good trigger, and do some internal bbl work instead. Installing choke tubes and/or doing the cone would aid versatility and make one good piece into a great rough duty shotgun.
He was also a bit of an innovator, and did a single shot project gun on a NEF/H&R 20 ga for a truck and scouting gun.
The bbl got bobbed and swage choked,IIRC. A good recoil pad went on a shortened stock, and the stock was also customized with a port,showing the end of the stock bolt and lightening the weapon and restoring the balance lopping the bbl had ruin't. Both metal and wood were refinished with low shine finishes,and the bead was filed to zero with his load of choice. I think it was sighted in with slugs, but it's been a long while.
Since we both were instructors, he brought it to the range for a showoff and some shooting. While I doubt it weighed more than say, 5 1/2 lbs, it carried like a wand and shot well at hand thrown(Frisbee style) clays.It was muzzle light, so a steady and controlled swing took work.
A nice project, for a shotgun to be carried lots and shot little.However, with the exception of the stock fit, I see little that the same shotgun ,absolutely unaltered, would have done just as well.
If I were to run into a beater Winchester 37, a classic H&R, etc, and wanted a truck/scouting/survival/turkey gun,I'd leave the bbl long, concentrate on getting a good trigger, and do some internal bbl work instead. Installing choke tubes and/or doing the cone would aid versatility and make one good piece into a great rough duty shotgun.
Dfariswheel
New member
I seem to remember a "Special Forces" single barrel Topper shotgun from the Viet Nam war. These were for Special Forces to issue to civilian 'Ruff-Puff' personell who weren't good enough with a rifle. As I recall, they had short barrels, rifle sights, sling swivels, and possible a camo finish.
I guess I don't understand why barrel length is so critical. I admittedly know very little about the ballistics of shotguns, but with rifles it's certainly possible to cut down the barrel. Obviously, it slows down the bullet, increases the noise, makes recoil a bit worse and decreases accuracy--but an 18" rifle is still just fine in most calibers. Much better than any handgun. Why are shotguns different? In this case, why would an 20" bbl Topper be so much worse than a 28" bbl version?
Dfariswheel
New member
GRH...Good point. One of the advantages of being into guns so many years, is you remember stuff from long ago:
Some years ago the Rifleman Dope Bag got an inquiry as to performance of different shotgun barrel lengths. The staff got a 40" barreled Marlin Goose gun and fitted a Cutts choke device. They patterned and chronographed it, cut it off an inch and refitted the Cutts. They continued this procedure until patterns and velocity went to hell.
Their conclusions:
1. The barrel was at 12 inches before the patterns got out of hand.
2. Any thing that's going to happen ballisticly in a shotgun barrel will happen within 18 inches.
3. After 28 inches, you start to lose velocity due to friction.
4. A longer barrel 'points' better then a short barrel which is important for most shotgun hunting and sports.
5. Barrels over 30 inches are a left-over from the days of black powder, when the longer a barrel was, the better it burned the powder.
Since this test was done some years ago, I'm not sure how valid it still is.
Some years ago the Rifleman Dope Bag got an inquiry as to performance of different shotgun barrel lengths. The staff got a 40" barreled Marlin Goose gun and fitted a Cutts choke device. They patterned and chronographed it, cut it off an inch and refitted the Cutts. They continued this procedure until patterns and velocity went to hell.
Their conclusions:
1. The barrel was at 12 inches before the patterns got out of hand.
2. Any thing that's going to happen ballisticly in a shotgun barrel will happen within 18 inches.
3. After 28 inches, you start to lose velocity due to friction.
4. A longer barrel 'points' better then a short barrel which is important for most shotgun hunting and sports.
5. Barrels over 30 inches are a left-over from the days of black powder, when the longer a barrel was, the better it burned the powder.
Since this test was done some years ago, I'm not sure how valid it still is.
D, there were lots of shotguns in SEA, including the equivalent of "Trade" guns.I recall seeing one tiny Hmung with an A-5 and bandito bandoliers full of all brass case 00.
GRH,IF the balance and fit are not affected,bbl length would be unimportant. But they are.
Shorter bbls are lighter, tend to shoot higher, and both blast and flash are increased. More blast and flash, more of a tendency to build a flinch.Cork off any round from a 18-20" bbled shotgun and another from the box from a 28" bbled shotgun. Even through plugs and muffs, the shorter one has noticeably more bark.
Shorter bbled shotguns tend to be muzzle light, and it's harder to swing them smoothly.
I like short bbled shotguns for most work. However, I recognize the drawbacks and accept them. Others may not, and I hate to see folks do something they later regret.
GRH,IF the balance and fit are not affected,bbl length would be unimportant. But they are.
Shorter bbls are lighter, tend to shoot higher, and both blast and flash are increased. More blast and flash, more of a tendency to build a flinch.Cork off any round from a 18-20" bbled shotgun and another from the box from a 28" bbled shotgun. Even through plugs and muffs, the shorter one has noticeably more bark.
Shorter bbled shotguns tend to be muzzle light, and it's harder to swing them smoothly.
I like short bbled shotguns for most work. However, I recognize the drawbacks and accept them. Others may not, and I hate to see folks do something they later regret.
Queston for Dave McC
"Shorter bbls...tend to shoot higher..."
I've been shotgunning for a lot of years, and have never heard of this before. I called my friend Bob Brister (whom you cite in an earlier post) to see if he could shed some light on this comment, and he is curious about this as well.
Will you please shed some light on your thought process here?
Thanks,
Bud
"Shorter bbls...tend to shoot higher..."
I've been shotgunning for a lot of years, and have never heard of this before. I called my friend Bob Brister (whom you cite in an earlier post) to see if he could shed some light on this comment, and he is curious about this as well.
Will you please shed some light on your thought process here?
Thanks,
Bud
Gee, going up against Bob Brister is heavy territory(G). Please mention I regard his masterwork, "Shotgunning" as the best resource available. Thanks.
Maybe it's me, I like a little rib showing on most of my shotguns, and it seems that shorter bbls tend to pattern a bit higher.Maybe it's a more acute angle to get the same sight picture. Other folks have told me it the same with them.I doubt it would happen with a flat sight pic.
Maybe it's me, I like a little rib showing on most of my shotguns, and it seems that shorter bbls tend to pattern a bit higher.Maybe it's a more acute angle to get the same sight picture. Other folks have told me it the same with them.I doubt it would happen with a flat sight pic.
