How to stop clip feed probs and jams

P

philster

New member
I have a Hi-Point C9 (compact 9mm), and am having probs with rounds jamming while feeding from the clip. Actually, clips - two 10 rd and a 7 rd.

I figure that there are a set of common issues with this kind of thing in any semiautomatic. For instance, it appears that the clip lips play a very important part in how high the primer end of the cartridge sits and at what angle it lies in the top of the clip. All three are relatively new, and I had problems from the start with flat point ammo.

Well, I tried modifying the lips by experimenting with slightly bending them in or out. That didn't seem to help, and I resolved that the flat points were really the issue. I finally shot them all up and replaced them with standard round nosed ammo (extremely hard to find these days, it took months). So I go out target shooting today, and the same problem.

I could ask Hi-Point to replace them (and they would), but I figure I could have the same problem. I'd really prefer to know how to position the lips for optimum jam-free feeding for myself. Is there a rule of thumb to follow for measuring how far the round should sit at the top of the clip and the correct angle? Would slightly chamfering the lower lip of the chamber be something to try? I'd really appreciate any advice.
 
For starters, I'd consider loading your magazines with ball ammunition and see if that helps with the feeding and reliability. Then see how well some hollow points feed in the gun. I wouldn't load your magazine with wadcutters.
 
I don't have a Hi-Point, but I can make lots of guesses. Why did you think there was a problem with the magazine? The release point is important (where the round is free of the lips), as is the spring pressure. Does it jam more on the first round or the last round? Does it jam when you cycle by hand? If not, I would suspect weak springs. Can you take a closeup pictures of the parts and the jam?

Keep in mind that as the nose is sliding up into the chamber, the head of the cartridge is sliding up the breech face. A rough spot around the firing pin hole or the extractor, for example, could cause the round to go nose up.


If you can duplicate the problem by hand cycling, troubleshooting will be safer with dummy rounds. Here's one way to make dummy rounds:

1. Pull the bullets out of some of the ammo you're having trouble with. You will need one of these: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=215517
2. Discard the powder, use your gun to pop the primers.
3. Drill an 1/8" hole in the side of each empty case.
4. Tap the bullets back into the cases until they're the exact same length as the ammo you didn't take apart.
5. Squirt hot glue or epoxy in the hole so the bullet can't get pushed further in when you're testing the gun.
 
DSA1115 - I did try ball ammo, same prob, I was surprised.

LaserSpot - when I was originally using FP's I made a possibly incorrect assumption that the prob was with the clip, and started tweaking the lips.

As for spring pressure, I've read where lots of folks load the clip 1 rd short until clips are broken in and that helps. However, jams occur throughout the feed at various points.

Some jams leave a round free of the clip but crossed in the chamber, but most are (you'll have to help me with terminology) when the receiver feed tang picks up the back of the round and the nose of the bullet tips down and sticks against the face of the chamber just below the opening. The first case requires dropping the clip and retracting the receiver to dump the round out. The second is resolved by just releasing/re-inserting the clip manually cycling a single rd.

I've also noticed when loading the clip that the top rd nose position varies. Sometimes the nose ends lay nice and flat against each other, then at other times there is slight separation as if they're pivoting slightly on the rim at the primer end. Pressing down on the top rd and releasing results in a slightly different angle. I don't know if this makes a difference or not.

As for weak springs, these clips have hardly been used - less than 200 rds each. I'd also read where most Hi-Point owners had fewer probs after the clips had cycled several times (springs originally too stiff).

I can take pictures, and will the next time I go to the range. I'll check for a rough spot around the firing pin hole or the extractor.

I haven't tried continuous hand cycling, but will. Wouldn't it be easier to use those snap-caps for this purpose? Maybe more expensive, but less trouble and more easily available if they are a match for size.
 
Some jams leave a round free of the clip but crossed in the chamber, but most are (you'll have to help me with terminology) when the receiver feed tang picks up the back of the round and the nose of the bullet tips down and sticks against the face of the chamber just below the opening.
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Is there rough spot right where the bullet nose is stopping?


As for weak springs, these clips have hardly been used - less than 200 rds each. I'd also read where most Hi-Point owners had fewer probs after the clips had cycled several times (springs originally too stiff).
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That is a possibility; if the spring is too stiff, that could cause the rounds to nose down when they're stripped from the magazine.


I've also noticed when loading the clip that the top rd nose position varies. Sometimes the nose ends lay nice and flat against each other, then at other times there is slight separation as if they're pivoting slightly on the rim at the primer end. Pressing down on the top rd and releasing results in a slightly different angle. I don't know if this makes a difference or not.
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It does sound like a problem with the magazine. I think you should ask Hi-Point to replace them; they might have had a bad batch or something.


I haven't tried continuous hand cycling, but will. Wouldn't it be easier to use those snap-caps for this purpose? Maybe more expensive, but less trouble and more easily available if they are a match for size.
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No, snap-caps are for dry firing. They're too light and they're made of plastic; it would be meaningless if they don't feed from the magazine. You could use Action Proving Dummies: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=...nterfire_Handgun_Dummies__9mm_Luger__per_10__
If you can reproduce the jams by hand cycling, you could save a lot of ammo and trips to the range. I would hate to see you waste $200 in ammo in a vain attempt to fix a $150 gun.

Also, could it be limp-wrist malfunctions? Is it less likely to jam with a really tight two-hand grip?
 
I'll check for rough spots where indicated, I'm going to try short loading the clips minus 1 rd, and also will pick up the action dummies (pretty cool tool). Is there any special technique to cycling the action to more closely simulate a firing? I typically grip the receiver firmly with one hand across the top, then push the pistol body underneath it quickly and firmly forward and release the receiver to let it return and chamber a rd.

I've never heard of a limp-wrist malfunction, and don't know how that's supposed to contribute to jamming - please explain. I'm using a two-handed grip. I'm a lefty, and I rest the butt of the grip in my right hand. Ham of my right thumb pressed against my left little finger with right fingers wrapped up and around the back of my left hand.

Hi-Point will replace all of the clips free of charge, I just wanted to understand the mechanics of what causes these problems. I was also concerned that the replacements may have the same issues. If it's anything besides the spring, I thought it should be something I could fix myself and save the aggravation of sending them out and back - living without any clips for however long.
 
also will pick up the action dummies (pretty cool tool).
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Dummies are also useful for detecting a trigger flinch. Drop a few in your pocket along with some live ammo. Load the magazine while you look at the sky. When it goes click instead of bang, do the sights stay on target? If not, it's something you need to work on.


I've never heard of a limp-wrist malfunction, and don't know how that's supposed to contribute to jamming - please explain.
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Limp-wristing is a problem that some polymer-frame pistols have. This is because the frame isn't heavy enough to stay put while the heavier slide reciprocates. This results in the slide not going all the way back, so the cartridge doesn't have time time to rise completely, and the slide isn't returning as fast.


Limp wristing is a term used to describe a phenomenon commonly encountered by semiautomatic pistol shooters, where the shooter's grip is not firm enough to hold the frame of the pistol steady while the bolt or slide of the pistol cycles. This condition often results in a failure to complete the operating cycle, properly termed a malfunction, but commonly (and incorrectly) termed a jam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limp_wristing
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Try pushing with one hand while you pull the pistol toward you with the other hand. If the problem is limp-wristing, you may need a weaker recoil spring or stronger ammo.


I thought it should be something I could fix myself and save the aggravation of sending them out and back
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I'm in favor of trying to fix it yourself if you can do so safely. The worst that will happen is you learn something, but still have to send the gun in.
 
Wow - a great article on limp wristing. The Hi-Point is a composite frame, a compact, and I'm shooting light load practice rds (115 gr). I don't understand what the article means by fast burning powder versus slow - "fast burning powders caused failures to increase, and medium and slow burning powders of the range suitable for the cartridge gave the best reliability." I will try a firmer grip using the method you suggested.

It seems like maybe slightly weakening the recoil spring may be something to consider. How is this typically done?

I got to thinking about it, and short loading the clip won't help because the jams occur at different places in the clip feed.
 
I don't know of a good way to weaken the recoil spring. Wolff and other companies sell different rate springs for some pistols, but probably not for Hi-Point. Try a firmer grip and look for +P ammo. If a firmer grip helps, you could try an intentionally weak grip to confirm the problem. I still wouldn't rule out the magazine spring.

I would guess that loads with slower burning powder are more reliable because they produce more recoil. A significant part of recoil is due to high velocity gas leaving the barrel after the bullet. Even though the gas doesn't weigh much, it's moving at a much higher velocity than the bullet is.

When a slower powder is used, more powder can be put into the case without excessive pressure. Because it's slow burning, the pressure peaks later and is higher at the point when the bullet clears the barrel. So, a larger mass of propellant gas exiting at a higher velocity would give slightly more recoil to operate the slide.
 
This is all great info - I really appreciate it. The Hi-Point C9 is +P rated. However, it's still pretty hard to find 9MM ammo of any kind, much less very specific loads. I don't know if the +P designation is related to the speed of the powder, or just the size of the load. There's lots of FP out there though! :barf: I'm shooting Winchester 115 gr. FMJ round nosed for target practice now. Other than a +P rating, how can you tell what the powder speed of any particular box of ammo is?
 
OK, I have the dummies, and... !@#$! I must be doing something wrong in working the slide, but I don't know what it is. For some reason most of these don't release from the slide when retracted, like when a live rd is fired and ejected. Sure the rd is extracted from the chamber, but it stays attached at the rim and the next rd just tries to jam in with it. What's going on? I noticed that these dummies have NO primer inserted. Maybe the spent primer is required in the cartridge for the action to function normally?
 
Just to see the differences between what I'm shooting and the +P you found (THANKS!):

Winchester
Muzzle Velocity: 1190 fps
Muzzle Energy: 362 ft. lbs.

Black Hills +P
Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 431 ft lbs

It appears that the muzzle energy difference is more than enough to change the way the slide retracts and the rds feed.
 
Another thought - if the bullet is heavier (147 gr vs. 115), will that also increase recoil as there's more resistance against the burn?

Here's the defense ammo I bought:

Winchester Supreme Elite Ammunition 9mm Luger 147 Grain Bonded PDX1 JHP
Muzzle Velocity: 1000 fps
Muzzle Energy: 326 ft. lbs.
 
Most guns have a seperate ejector, but I think yours uses the firing pin as the ejector. You will have to find a way to fill the primer pockets so the pin has something to hit against. Maybe hotglue?

Or, if you have a small pin punch, you could tap the spent primers out of fired cases and try to get them into the dummy rounds.

It's hard to say if heavier bullets are likely to be more reliable. You haven't ruled out problems with the magazine spring, feed ramp, etc... Feeding the dummy rounds may provide a clue.
 
OK, for my last post I guess it does look like the numbers are going the wrong way on the PD rds to help me with jamming. If muzzle energy is the key indicator, then it looks like clip jams may even be worse.

As for the dummies, I figured it out - but I don't know how to work around it. The firing pin doesn't retract fully with the slide. As a normal spent rd is pulled back by the extractor tang's grip on the rim, the primer hits the end of the firing pin and this spins the casing outward through the port and free of the tang. Without a primer cap in place, this doesn't happen and the casing doesn't get pushed off of the extractor. Do I need to insert something in the primer hole to fix this?

It's a miracle I didn't break my firing pin by jamming another rd into the breach.
 
JB Weld KwikSteel filled the primer holes nicely and the rds will eject properly. Now I need to take pics of the jams I'm getting, and the angles of the rds in the clips.
 
Good idea; that's better than hot glue. So is it jamming the same way when you hand cycle rounds? If so, that probably rules out limp-wristing.

Does it make a difference if you pull the slide all the way back and let go, or if you hold onto the slide as it goes forward?
 
Well, now that the dummies are right it doesn't seem to jam with round nosed ammo when hand cycling. However, I figure that I'm slowing down the action and almost trying to cause a jam if I hold onto the slide, so I've just been releasing it at the rear of the full retraction stroke.

I've attached my pics with comments. I would have put them in with the text, but forgot how to do that.

1RD in Clip - note the alignment of the rd casing with the clip, it's pretty much parallel without a lot of spring tension in the clip. Shown are both the dummy and JHP rds.

Note where the primer sits with respect to the edge of the clip. I guess I'll have to post another reply to get the rest of the images.
 

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