How tight a group is 'average'?

D

DarkRayz

New member
Well I bought this expensive pistol that promised 2" groups at 50 yards, and I reckon I'll be asking for my money back, cause I took it out today and it don't shoot near that good!

:)

Okay that was me poking fun.

Seriously though, if I may ask some newbie questions:

When such figures are quoted, is it implicit that these this accuracy tests are done a certain way? On a bench rest or fixed in a firing frame, to remove the human frailties from the equation?

With a stock full size pistol, what kind of shot grouping by a standing shooter at 30-35 feet would be considered above average or however is it rated? If someone can plunk all their shots into a 4" circle at 35 feet...is that above average?
 
My friend, . . . if you are dropping 5 straight into a 4 inch circle at 35 feet, . . . you are head and shoulders above the average shooters I see.

And I'm talking about "Joe Shooter", . . . he/she owns a couple of guns, . . . shoots 6 or less times a year.

The key here is: can you do it every time? If you are, . . . you're good to go and just need to fine tune the fundamentals.

I've known folks who have shot for bunches of years, . . . would paste that target on their refrigerator with the grandchildren's alligator drawings.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
When such figures are quoted, is it implicit that these this accuracy tests are done a certain way? On a bench rest or fixed in a firing frame, to remove the human frailties from the equation?
Click to expand...

Yes, when such figures are quoted, they're typically done off a bench support or a ransom rest, where the gun is locked into place. Good reviews and range reports will make the conditions of the test explicit, though it may be in the fine print.

With a stock full size pistol, what kind of shot grouping by a standing shooter at 30-35 feet would be considered above average or however is it rated? If someone can plunk all their shots into a 4" circle at 35 feet...is that above average?
Click to expand...

Well, here's my $0.02. FWIW, YMMV, IMHO, and all that...

The real answer to your question may seem glib, but it's deceptively complicated: Good shooting is hitting what you're aiming at:

In SD or action shooting, you're aiming for center of mass at SD distance, roughly a circle 8" in diameter, so good shooting is delivering all your shots there, but as quickly as possible.

In target shooting, the aim area is much smaller and the distance greater, say a 1.5" diameter 10-ring at 25 yards. Good shooting, then, is placing all your shots there under no (or less) time pressure.

In hunting, the aim area and distance is that which will result in a clean humane kill with one shot. Good shooting is achieving that.

Typically, though, when someone asks the question, I get the sense they're asking "If an above-average shooter simply picked up his/her gun and shot a 5-shot group at 30-35 feet, slowly and deliberately, how big would the group be? 4"?

Well, the good news first - yes, a 4" 30-35ft group is probably "above average". The bad news, though, is that the "average" isn't very good, IMHO. With a little bit of instruction, practice and attention to the fundamentals, just about anyone could shoot a 4" group at 30-35 feet.

FWIW, my benchmark for good (but not excellent) group shooting is an honest and consistent 3" at 25 yards. That's 5 slow aimed deliberate rounds from a service sized revolver or pistol, shot standing 2-hands unsupported. Revolver shooters ought to be able to do this in double action mode as well.

"Honest and consistent" are important qualifiers, too: "Honest" means no "fliers". Everything counts. "Consistent" means this is what one can typically do on demand. It isn't a single fluke target.
 
With a stock full size pistol, what kind of shot grouping by a standing shooter at 30-35 feet would be considered above average or however is it rated? If someone can plunk all their shots into a 4" circle at 35 feet...is that above average?
Click to expand...

One could ask, how much time elapsed while shooting this group? Slow/fast?
Some could argue that shooting groups like that means you are shooting too slow ( competition/self defense )

Is there such a thing as to average groups? I would think it would all fall on the shooters capability.
 
I do not consider myself to be an outstanding or even excellent shooter with a handgun. After years of practice at 10 yards I can more or less consistently group everything, whether it be with a revolver in double action or a semi-auto, in 2 1/2" or less. On a good day, much better than that. But that's slow fire, taking as much time as I need (probably about 10 seconds between shots) to re-aim and control my breathing. Speed things up and my groups get bigger. Move the target back and my groups get progressively larger as the distance increases. At 15 yards, on a good day, I can get 4" groups. At 25 yards, my all time best group was just over 2", but there are days when I'm doing well to put all of my shots in a 6" circle.

I know lots of people who can outshoot me. The difference between me and them, I think, boils down to two factors. (1) vision. My aging eyes do not give me a completely clear picture of the front sight regardless of correction. As a result, my shots often are a little to the left or right or above (very often above!) my imagined point of aim. Not much, but just enough to keep me from shooting really well. (2) hand tremors. At age 64 my hands shake more than they did 20 years ago, a lot more. There's nothing I can do about that. It's annoying, but they often ruin a good group.

There are a few things one can do to improve one's shooting. Most importantly, one should minimize hand movement to the extent possible. I spend at least a few minutes a day dry firing my handguns. My objective always is the same. Keep the gun as steady as possible through the firing cycle. Control movement and your shooting will improve, it's as simple as that.
 
Slow fire (my slow fire is at most 2 seconds between shots)

at 7 yards, I am disgusted at myself if everything isnt in a 2" group

at 15 yards, I am ok with having a 5" group

but i've read a lot of people here say at 25 yards you should be shooting a 3" group.

as for rapid fire, as long as you're hitting the COM, you're good.
 
Unless I'm training defensive scenarios, I like to shoot at 1" circles with a dot in the center.. regardless of distance, out to a reasonable distance where I can still resolve the circle with my eye or through the scope.

I like this because it's hard. If I then go to shoot an NRA target with a significantly larger X ring, it's like shooting a basketball into a swimming pool.

I can work up to a stance/speed/distance combination where I start to fail, and I know my current ability. I know what I'm capable of doing in that moment, for a variety of reasons, beyond my technique or gun, but including my mindset, my physique, and other internal factors.

Every shot should be a learning experience. As a newbie, be concerned with your ability, not somebody else's. For the best shooters out there, what's "average" doesn't concern them, because when you think about "average" or "good" or "great," you've already limited yourself.

Strive to shoot the best you can every time you shoot, every time you pull the trigger. Focus intently on that shot, because prior shots don't influence it, and future shots haven't happened yet.
 
I like this because it's hard. If I then go to shoot an NRA target with a significantly larger X ring, it's like shooting a basketball into a swimming pool.
Click to expand...

that made me lol. but its true. if your train as hard as possible, when you need to do real life stuff its easier
 
As a newbie, be concerned with your ability, not somebody else's.


Strive to shoot the best you can every time you shoot, every time you pull the trigger. Focus intently on that shot, because prior shots don't influence it, and future shots haven't happened yet.
Click to expand...


Some very excellent advice here.
 
Darkrayz, any claim from a manufacturer is gonna be locked down in a bench vice. So depending on ur skill as a shooter it may be difficult to duplicate any "guaranteed accuracy" by the mfr.

i wouldnt be to disapointed if u can make the gun hit the guarenteed mark. Most guns are more accurate than the shooter opperating them.
 
There are a lot of factors ......speed, are you drawing from a holster, are you at a "high ready position", are you "bulls eye shooting" 5 rds in 3 minutes, etc ...

I have some guns that are guaranteed 1" groups at 25 yards ...can I shoot off-hand that well, No ! Will the guns do that from a rest - Yes !

"Tactical Accuracy" - in my mind .... whistle blows, drawing from a holster, putting 2 shots on target inside 5 seconds ( is fairly slow ) ....and at 30 Ft I want them 100% in an 8" circle. As I speed that drill up to 4 Seconds / or 3 seconds ...can I still do it / somedays / somedays not.... Can I do it at 10ft / how about 15 ft / 21 ft ....

In my mind, if I can do that drill and keep it in a 5" circle / I need to speed up because I'm not pushing myself. If I have trouble holding it in an 8" circle / I need to slow down ...of fix one of my fundamentals ( my draw, angle I clear my body at, time I fire 1st shot at, what is the time between shots ) and I use a timer to record it ....so I can see how long it takes to draw the weapon, fire 1st shot, fire 2nd shot ....

My skills have eroded with age / deteriorating eye sight .... but I do this kind of a drill often with double taps, triple taps, mix in a reload ( double tap, reload, double tap ..). The "Pros" can do it under 2 sec easy ...but that doesn't matter ... keep your own training log, push yourself to get better, work on reducing your split times, work on your draw, work on your grip, work on getting your hand on the gun in the holster just right (high and tight ), work on trigger control .....and if you can shoot twice a week / you'll get faster and more accurate probably.
 
Shooting groups is really nothing more than weapons familiarization - at least, in the fashion most people practice it. It's good practice, but it's not really "training" until you're happy with your slow fire groups and start stepping up to speed shooting.

When you're happy with your slow fire group shooting, then step up to the next level because what really counts is how fast you can draw and put that first shot where you want it to go. The faster you can put that "one shot group" where you want it to go, the more ready you are to face a real world threat. Start at seven yards and increase the distance as you get better.

When you're happy with that first shot speed and accuracy, then start double tapping.

Set goals for yourself. Make it interesting. If possible, shoot metal plates because that "gong" sound makes instant feedback and really increases the fun level - the more fun, the more you'll enjoy shooting.
 
This is just me, there are many opinions about shooting out there and just as many people who have their own personal version of what they consider average.

To a Bullseye Shooter, a tight group in allotted time is what they're looking for. To a combat shooter, a double or triple tap com quickly is what they're looking for.

So, the average is somewhat difficult to ascertain on a large forum like this.

Personally, if I can get 3 shots on a paper plate in less than 2 seconds, I'm doing my average.

That is my goal regardless of range. Most of the time I practice at 30 feet.

That is how far the old tree stump was from the railroad ties in my yard.
 
despite all that is being said, never use the crutch "my groups are bad because i was firing quickly"

the like many said before me, the first thing you need to master is slow unlimited time fire. once you have mastered that, then you should move onto quick draw, speed firing, etc.
 
Thanks for the insight everyone.
Some folks compete with others, some compete with themselves, and some do both.

I'm not putting 5 of 5 shots into a 4" circle at 35 feet....that was just an example.

But I always improve better when I have an 'external' goal such as a competition, etc. Golfing by myself, when I golfed, I did awful. Golfing for lunch or bragging rights, much better. I don't really need my pistol for self-defense in my current environs, I just enjoy the challenge and the loud bang, to be honest. I'm looking at some opportunities here in Phoenix to improve my skills.....

Thanks!
 
I must be "average" then. I generally maintain 3-4" groups (with a .40 S&W or .45ACP) at 10 yards...rapid fire (6-8 rounds/3 seconds or so). Of course, I do not really concern myself with accuracy beyond 15-20 yards when shooting "HD" specific weaponry. Besides, to me, when the sh*t hits the fan, pinpoint accuracy is blown out the window for most of us.
 
Last edited:
If I'm evaluating the accuracy of a handgun and load, I shoot from a rest at say, 50 yards.

If I'm evaluating the accuracy of me, I shoot unsupported at 25 or 50.
 
My best would be 8 shots into an inch at 25 yards.
Click to expand...

:eek:

That's what I would call good shooting. I've never been able to do that, but didn't shoot a pistol until about age 35. Now at 50, my eyes are fading fast. It's a pisser to be both near sighted and now far sighted. Can't see the front sight with my seeing glasses and can't see the target with my reading glasses. Like I can't discern the target from the background, not that it's a bit fuzzy.

I did shoot 3 bullets into a clover leaf at 33 ft. :D but they were all jerkled low and left :( For me the "fliers" are more often the ones that hit the bullseye.:o
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top