How serious a problem is weapon retention for LEO’s ?

S

Scott Evans

Staff Alumnus
I am looking for real figures from a verifiable source as to the actual number of Law Enforcement Officers who are shot with their own weapon.

I am working on a retention devise for a proposed Duty holster and need market justification data.

Also, True verifiable accounts of such incidents would lend clout to the project.

I’m sold … but I need ammo.

Thanks in advance.


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“This is my rifle, there many like it but this one is mine …”
 
Scott I cannot provide you with actual figures however I may be able to direct you to a good source for your research.
Several years ago a civilian employee of the Kansas City, MO. police department, Jim Lindel developed many techniques for weapons retention that were taught throughout the country. Lindel is the one that originated the caratoid(sp?) artery neck restraint (choke hold) that has now became imfamous. I'm sure that Mr. Lindel is no longer there and in fact has probably passed by now but I'm sure his techniques are stil being taught there. Someone in their martial arts program will have statistics.
The police academey is listed as the Regional Training Academey located in the Penn Valley Community College in Kansas City, MO.

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
According to the last available report(1998), 57 officers were killed between 1989 & 1998 with their own weapons. Basic stats follow:

Total slain with firearms - 626
Slain with own weapon - 57
Slain while wearing body armor - 270
Slain with own weapon while wearing body armor - 21

Break it down, it works out to roughly 8-10%, regardless of armor.

These and other statistics are available from the FBI via their Uniform Crime Reports at: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr.htm
OR http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/98killed.pdf

Hope this helps.
 
Guys - This is the way you quote Stats...
Give the data, The Source, and a link or contact info.
JeepBear... 50 cool points. Good Job.
 
George. Now if we could only get gun magazines do quote sources and gun writers included. We'd know the goat tests took place and that "one shot stopping" is valid. Wouldn't that be refreshing.
Interesting to see the number shot with their own weapon. DOJ claims the rest literally die with their guns IN the holster.
Shooting back is very rare.
 
JeepBear,

I noticed that you have a habit of doing good research, keep up the good work...

Scott,

Please take this in the way it is meant (not a slam to you or your proposed product).

Weapon retention is a training issue... it is not going ot be solved by a gimmick, no matter how good the gimmick is. Quadruple retention holsters with magic telepathy release systems are not going to solve the problem of LEOs with horrible officer safety habits and worse training regimens. Everytime a dept mandates some holster of other product that makes the weapon harder to get into the fight, as much damage is done to tactically aware cops as help is given to the slower ones.
It is rather like giving a man a fish instead of teaching him how to fish.

Two cases in point:

1. Inevitably, super-retention holsters lead to people "cheating" and the weapons end up with no protection at all.. or out when they should be in.
There was a tiny little Female LEO trainee at the academy class with me. Because of her size and tactical aptitude she would've been the poster-child for those who would give LEOs super secure holsters... but she was too tactically inept to use the holster properly, so she habitually undoes the snaps everytime she gets out of her car... just in case.... Of course, she would occassionaly forget to secure the holster after she felt like she might not need it.

2. During a Defensive Tactics training session we were running "60 second fight for life" excercises with people from several different depts. In the excercise, the BG tries to get the cops gun and the cop tries to cuff the BG. It almost never happens that the cop can cuff the BG and the thing ususlly ends with two guys on the ground wrestling over the gun.
I was matched with a guy with a tripple retention super holster. I gave him my back, to simulate a realistic cuffing scenario, as soon as he touched me, I spun on him, got to his back, and drew his gun just like the owner's manual says to... BG's can read to, and I'm sure that many of them buy gun mags.....

I've never had to work with a triple retention holster.. but next month my PD is switching to one.. I am not happy about it. I'll let you know how it works out if you are interested.

IMHO, retention is an issue that should be handled with HTH skills and tactical awareness, not gadgets.

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-Essayons



[This message has been edited by Rob (edited March 03, 2000).]
 
Thanks, all for the help …

I love this place, as it is a well of immediate information. You guys are great.


Rob,
I agree with nearly all of what you say above. The project is not to the point where it can be brought to a public discussion; however I would respect your input. Please email me or call if you have any interest in providing a confidential evaluation.



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“This is my rifle, there many like it but this one is mine …”
 
To reiterate:
Weapon retention is a training issue.

I originally purchased a level three retention holster. Part of my decision was based on experiences of friends in law enforcement, part of it was reviews I read, part on marketing. I switched to a level two holster, which was more than adequate when cpoupled with the retention skills I learned while in the academy and afterwards from my department. I am confident that my weapon will remain where I want it until I need it- not because of added safety, but because of my added safty.

Erik
 
While I should have the current statistics off the top of my head, I don't.

Since there are quite a number of officers are killed with their own firearm, weapon retention is now part of the academy (we had only a cursory introduction when I went). I volitionally went to a Safariland Level SS III holster. Rob pointed out a problem with some of these holsters - some folks can't get their guns out or train with the snaps undone. In a real life situation, when they go to draw, they forget to unsnap the holster! Train as you plan to fight they say.

A bit of digression here. My semi-auto pistol instructor had one of those Level III holsters and he cheated. Got into a gunfight and felt jolt of pain in his crotch. He cried out to his partner, "I'm hit!" His partner is engaging the BG of course while my instructor keeps tugging at his gun. When the fight is done and over, (the good guys win), the instructor checks himself and finds no holes. He then realized that he didn't break the 2nd snap on his holster. What happened is that when he drew, because of the keepers, his trousers rode up on his waist, tugged at his crotch, and thereby causing the cramp/pain in his crotch. He learned to practice and that example is one which I tell my shooters today. Indeed, I tell them to practice drawing at home for about 1,500 times to get the muscle memory reflex down nice and natural. To simulate an injury, I challenge the (slimmer) officers I challenge to draw from behind their back with their weak hand. I have another technique for a pot bellied officer, but enough digression.

Mind you, like Rob says, bad guys read the gun rags too and know how to remove the gun. Some openly practice it in the prison yard.

While officers are taught to keep an arms and a half length distance from a suspect, that goes out the window when you're involved in a knock-down, drag out fight or a wrestling match - both which should be avoided. Natuarally, this is easier said than done.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
It will vary a point or to each year but it averages between 22-25 percent each year. PlusP was right about a lot of them dying with their guns snapped down in their holsters. I had an Officer murdered in the line of duty last year and his weapon was still snapped down in his holster, when his backup arived less than 30 seconds later. The backup Officer fired at the fleeing scum bags but the Officer was dead by then. The deceased Officer had no idea as to what he was dealing with when he died. He apparently thought it was a stranded motorist instead of two prison escapees who had shot another cop just two days before. To have to sit in the court room and listen to his murderer discribe how he killed this fine young man was a low point in my life. I will gladly pull the switch on this SOB if they will let me...7th

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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.

[This message has been edited by 7th Fleet (edited March 04, 2000).]
 
I tell them to practice drawing at home for about 1,500 times to get the muscle
memory reflex down nice and natural.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
20,000 times won't work. We just want to believe this. Even the most simple systems fail. I had a 250+ pound violent drunk on my back and I decided to shoot him a year ago when he jumped me from behind in a fast food place while working a part time security job I foolishly took. I WANTED to shoot him, but the level three wouldn't let the gun out with him on my back crushing me into a booth. I could push down but in no other direction. I had to fight him for a booze bottle he hit me with.
Even in low risk situations cops fail to perform simple functions even with level two or no level holsters. If you observe the Ohio blue suburban shooting you see the cop in the background (old timer to boot) try 5 or 6 times to get his gun out. He had to RIP it out of the holster. He wasn't even being shot at.
There is the assumption a cop or civilian will even REMEMBER they have a gun. Memory blocking chemistry can block the memory of being able to GET The gun, the the vital need to have it in hand (or someone have it in hand) when trouble strikes. Asking the person to remember the gun and then follow a complex set of moves to get it out is beyond human skills in many cases.
Level 3's are sweet music to liability concerned administrations. ANOTHER way to keep it from being used at the cost of officer safety. Kinda like Mom convincing you the castor oil is good for you.
When we consider the enourmous amount of thinking and information we have to process to survive a shooting, tossing in the burden of complex thought requiring moves to just get a gun out of a holster isn't helping us any.
It is far easier to set about to teach officers and civilians how to AVOID the need for weapon retention BEFORE it goes that far. That is a time when we can apply training. Once the grab is on for the gun the ability to think is trashed. The fact so many die with their gun in the holster sure indicates something failed BEFORE it became fatal.
 
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