At a recent gun show I show a S&W M19. It had a 3" barrel with the ejector rod shroud (not like the 3" M66 but more like the old M27) had counter-sank chambers, pinned barrel, was nickel plated with heavy engraving white pearl grips AND fixed sights. yes it had M19-2 stamped under the crane.
How rare is this Smith?
- Thread starter Skip-2
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
Wow, I've never heard of anything quite like that.
It has elements that were available on S&W Model 19s over the years, but definitely in an odd combination...
Fixed sight versions (the 19P) were made for export to South America, but I'm not certain about nickle, and as far as I know they were only in 2.5" length. I also don't know when they were made, but I think it was in the late 1970s early 1980s.
The original 3" model 19s WERE in the 19-2 time frame. Original 3" Model 19s are QUITE rare.
If this gun was an original factory 3", with factory engraving, it could be work quite a bit.
Any idea what the serial number might be? It has to be in a very specific range to be an early factory 3"
How much was the dealer asking for it?
It has elements that were available on S&W Model 19s over the years, but definitely in an odd combination...
Fixed sight versions (the 19P) were made for export to South America, but I'm not certain about nickle, and as far as I know they were only in 2.5" length. I also don't know when they were made, but I think it was in the late 1970s early 1980s.
The original 3" model 19s WERE in the 19-2 time frame. Original 3" Model 19s are QUITE rare.
If this gun was an original factory 3", with factory engraving, it could be work quite a bit.
Any idea what the serial number might be? It has to be in a very specific range to be an early factory 3"
How much was the dealer asking for it?
M
M58
Guest
Supica, page 115: "3" very rare..."
May be time to call Roy Jinks at S&W.
May be time to call Roy Jinks at S&W.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Sorry, Sam, it's just got too many oddities associated with it.
The 19-2 puts it into the early to mid 1960s, which is consistent with the 3" barrel length, but the fixed sights... That's a killer.
Oh, and it's R.J. Reynolds for me, thank you.
The 19-2 puts it into the early to mid 1960s, which is consistent with the 3" barrel length, but the fixed sights... That's a killer.
Oh, and it's R.J. Reynolds for me, thank you.
Ronin.......yep. I used to watch the Mr n Mrs North whodunnits on the radio and they were a sponsor.
Mike....agree re the collection of oddities. I used to, on occaision, get em with strange combinations for customers but never that strange. Yeah, fixed sights and 19 don't seem compatable. That gun would have had to been dedicated to that order very early in it's life.......before the finish machining of the frame.
Maby very special order for a VIP as presentation to nuther VIP.....but without dedication markings.............The history has to be interesting.
Sam...............or is it a fake ?
Mike....agree re the collection of oddities. I used to, on occaision, get em with strange combinations for customers but never that strange. Yeah, fixed sights and 19 don't seem compatable. That gun would have had to been dedicated to that order very early in it's life.......before the finish machining of the frame.
Maby very special order for a VIP as presentation to nuther VIP.....but without dedication markings.............The history has to be interesting.
Sam...............or is it a fake ?
I'll try and get the s/no so that it can be checked by some of the gurus. As best as I can recollect it had round but and the number had no letters in it - just numerals.
It seems un-necessary for a fixed sight frame to be marked M-19 when they already had the M-13. Why did they ever do this?
It seems un-necessary for a fixed sight frame to be marked M-19 when they already had the M-13. Why did they ever do this?
Mike Irwin
Staff
Skip,
The 13 didn't come out until the 1970s sometime, the 19-2 was in the 1960s.
The 13 didn't come out until the 1970s sometime, the 19-2 was in the 1960s.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Skip,
Are you SURE that it was a Model 19?
The French took a number of different models over the years, but I've never heard of a Model 19 3" variant being made for the French, especially not with fixed sights.
The original 3" was, I believe, special order for the Michigan State Police.
Supica & Nahaus don't list anything on this possible model in their "variations" section on the Model 19.
I think I'm going to e-mail the link for this thread to Jim and see if he knows anything.
Are you SURE that it was a Model 19?
The French took a number of different models over the years, but I've never heard of a Model 19 3" variant being made for the French, especially not with fixed sights.
The original 3" was, I believe, special order for the Michigan State Police.
Supica & Nahaus don't list anything on this possible model in their "variations" section on the Model 19.
I think I'm going to e-mail the link for this thread to Jim and see if he knows anything.
Sounds like a strange one...
The Model 19P was a fixed sight piece made for export to Peru. These were made in the late 80's, I'm guessing 87 from what's printed versus the s/n on my 4" version (AWFxxxx). There were 4"ers and 2.5"ers, most that I've seen were 4", only looked at one 2.5" piece, and it was VERY nice.
The M19P was too late to be recessed, as that practive went away in 81/82.
The piece you describe could be a one-off factory piece or ??
Your comment "It had a 3" barrel with the ejector rod shroud (not like the 3" M66 but more like the old M27) " is a little confusing, as the M66 and the M27 both have barrels with shrouded ejector rods, so cannot tell what you are saying.
Do you remember if the extractor star was blue or nickel?? Factory nickel guns all had blued stars, this is one way to determine if the piece was legit or re-nickeled outside the factory.
It could very well be a factory 3" gun that was gussied up for a special order, but I've never heard of one nor heard anyone talking about any fixed sight M19's other than the M19P. Never say never with S&W, there are certainly a lot of variations out there. For confirmation on this, the best and only way to check is call Roy Jinks, the S&W Historian at 800/331-0852, ext. 223.
Good luck.
.......SmithNut
The Model 19P was a fixed sight piece made for export to Peru. These were made in the late 80's, I'm guessing 87 from what's printed versus the s/n on my 4" version (AWFxxxx). There were 4"ers and 2.5"ers, most that I've seen were 4", only looked at one 2.5" piece, and it was VERY nice.
The M19P was too late to be recessed, as that practive went away in 81/82.
The piece you describe could be a one-off factory piece or ??
Your comment "It had a 3" barrel with the ejector rod shroud (not like the 3" M66 but more like the old M27) " is a little confusing, as the M66 and the M27 both have barrels with shrouded ejector rods, so cannot tell what you are saying.
Do you remember if the extractor star was blue or nickel?? Factory nickel guns all had blued stars, this is one way to determine if the piece was legit or re-nickeled outside the factory.
It could very well be a factory 3" gun that was gussied up for a special order, but I've never heard of one nor heard anyone talking about any fixed sight M19's other than the M19P. Never say never with S&W, there are certainly a lot of variations out there. For confirmation on this, the best and only way to check is call Roy Jinks, the S&W Historian at 800/331-0852, ext. 223.
Good luck.
.......SmithNut
Mike Irwin
Staff
Well, if that is the serial number, things just got stranger.
That number is from late 1974 or so, nearly 7 years AFTER the 19-2 went out of production for the 19-3.
I'm really starting to think that this could be a Model 13 that was mis-marked at the factory.
The 13 came out in 1974, so the serial number is correct for it to be possibly a transition gun.
Both the 19 AND the Model 10 in .357 Mag. served as test beds for the Model 13 around this time.
But, again, there's a small problem. The 19-2 had been out of production for a number of years (but it's always possible that an old frame was used), and the 13-2 didn't come out until 1977.
I sent Jim Supica an e-mail; hopefully he'll read this thread and comment.
That number is from late 1974 or so, nearly 7 years AFTER the 19-2 went out of production for the 19-3.
I'm really starting to think that this could be a Model 13 that was mis-marked at the factory.
The 13 came out in 1974, so the serial number is correct for it to be possibly a transition gun.
Both the 19 AND the Model 10 in .357 Mag. served as test beds for the Model 13 around this time.
But, again, there's a small problem. The 19-2 had been out of production for a number of years (but it's always possible that an old frame was used), and the 13-2 didn't come out until 1977.
I sent Jim Supica an e-mail; hopefully he'll read this thread and comment.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Heard back from Jim, and he's got pretty much the same information that I do.
He tried to post a reply, but didn't have any success after he registered. We'll get him on board, though.
Jim did give me Rick Nahaus' e-mail address, who is the Hand Ejector guy (Jim likes the breaktops), and see if he has any information on this.
He tried to post a reply, but didn't have any success after he registered. We'll get him on board, though.
Jim did give me Rick Nahaus' e-mail address, who is the Hand Ejector guy (Jim likes the breaktops), and see if he has any information on this.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Just heard back from Rick Nahaus...
Short message, but it contained some tantalizing information...
There was a Model 19 with fixed sights made for export (I'm assuming by the way he worded the message that this is different from the 19 that was made for Peru).
He's going to try to track down some more information.
Short message, but it contained some tantalizing information...
There was a Model 19 with fixed sights made for export (I'm assuming by the way he worded the message that this is different from the 19 that was made for Peru).
He's going to try to track down some more information.