How much training? And of what sort? Before....

O

OhioGuy

New member
Home defense? Concealed carry?

I've just recently gotten into shooting. Have my first pistol and a good range where I can practice and take some training classes ranging from basic marksmanship to more advanced stuff, like shooting in low light or simulated stressful encounters.

In conversations with some acquaintences, who own guns and in some cases carry (although not always, or everywhere) it seems they have surprisingly little training or practice. Almost as though "Hey, I bought this gun, shot a decent group at 20 feet on my first day, and now I keep it loaded under the bed--and God help whoever breaks in!"

Others, hearing of Orlando or other horrible assault situations, take an 8 hour CCW class, buy a small pocket pistol and a holster, and begin carrying with (seeming) confidence that they'll take down a crazed shooter with a rifle, should the need arise.

I'm just guessing that being a dead-shot at 50 feet still won't help me a lot in the dead of night, with an intruder in my house (maybe), an alarm going off, and my heart up in my throat, and family members on the other sides of walls. I don't expect to be robbed by a sheet of paper.

And in a real situation where someone has gone crazy? No idea if he's acting alone, or where another CCW person might be in the situation, or where/when the police could show up and mistake ME for a criminal, etc. etc. etc.

Or a robbery--oh no! This punk has a gun on me! Should I give him my shoes and hope he runs away? Should I try to draw from my cool new CCW holster and take him down? What if this punk kid is a better shot than John Wayne???

So I guess I'm asking, in the experience of those here, how much training should one have before actually keeping that gun under the bed to stop an intruder? Before carrying a weapon into places where it might actually have to be used?

And how many people do you think carry weapons unprepared?

Thanks, y'all.
 
Like most things in life, the folks who actually learn how to use their stuff is quite small.
It's a lot of effort, time and money to acquire skills, whatever the subject.
So hardly anyone does it, shooting included.
The same for driving cars, riding motorcycles, scuba diving, just about anything you can imagine.
Don't be one of those.
With all the training opportunities these days, there's no excuse for not learning all you want.
How much training you want is entirely up to you and your circumstances.
There's really no limit to it.
 
"Hey, I bought this gun, shot a decent group at 20 feet on my first day, and now I keep it loaded under the bed--and God help whoever breaks in!"
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Laugh if you like, but the reality people with this level of training and mentality defend their lives successfully with small arms across the country every day.
One problem is the myth of the "highly trained professional." Which amounts to a belief by many Americans that police officers and anyone with military experience is highly trained with a firearm.
Most are highly trained, but if you spend time around them you will realize it is not with small arms for the majority. Using a firearm is a very small part of their job. Their penmanship is probably more critical. Many police officers shoot less than a hundred rounds a year. I think Ohio law requires 56 rounds to qualify. The last statistics I saw on police shootings indicated about 85% misses in shootings. I have a large drone pilot installation in my area. How much small arms training do you think drone pilots receive? Despite this fact people are entirely comfortable with police officers and military personnel carrying firearms without further training.

If you are doing home defense correctly you are almost always going to be holed up in a location defending a limited number of approaches, hopefully down a stairway or hallway. Hopefully any family is behind or above you and the burglar in front. If you are smart you have made some changes to the lighting to help yourself out. I installed an outlet with a small LED light at the end of my hallway. If at night, when we thing of occupied robberies most likely occurring, they will be in a lit area and I will be in the dark. If they approach my position they will be silhouetted. Any common burglar after a TV and some jewelry is going to run like hell as soon as you start shooting. I really don't think you need much training or time at the range for this type of home defense. If you want to clear your house every time you hear a bump, are preparing for a doomsday scenario where you hold off 100 people entering through 20 doors and windows, or own a house with paper walls, you might need more training.

You need more training for carrying. For starters, and I think as a general statement this holds true across the country, you pick up a lot more civil and criminal liability in almost any situation you fire your weapon or even just draw it outside your house. There are a lot more logistical issues with carrying on your body in an less secure environment. Retention, holster fit, restrooms, printing, knowing and disarming & securing for CPZs. Then there are decisions one should make ahead of time and ancillary skills such as first aid and how/when to apply to an injured aggressor, what to do immediately after a shooting(before police arrive), what to do after police arrive assuming you are not immediately taken into custody, having a lawyer lined-up, and a hundred other things.

To give you an idea of the complications, one comment I love to read and hear is 'I don't carry my $X,XXX dollar pistol because I don't want it to be taken in case of a shooting. I carry my BLANK which only costs $XXX." These people clearly have no idea the problems and costs most self-defense shootings are going to entail. That $3,000 1911 is going to be less concern to the shooter than to the evidence room clerk by the time it is all said and done and the attorney probably won't take the small sum as a deposit. Ok, maybe a bit of an exaggeration.

I don't think you really need to attend high dollar training to carry. One weekend class or several coupl of hour classes early on would probably be beneficial so a trained instructor can look at your grip, stance, and draw and adjust the basics. You can become proficient using videos posted by respected instructors on youtube, a mirror, video camera, and more of your time. If you put some time into these things you will be far ahead f almost anyone giving you random trouble on the street. If you want to kick down doors or compete in IDPA then you probably need more training with a quality instructor in a multi-day course environment.

To put this in perspective, I would never let a stranger use my chainsaw even if present. I would never let a 9 year old try out my chainsaw. I've let strangers and kids shoot my firearms multiple times without any real concern and minimal additional restriction.
 
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Competently having a gun for self defense involves more than just marksmanship:

  • You will want to know and understand the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference. You will want to understand how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter and how to articulate why, in a particular situation, you decided to take whatever action you did.

  • You will want to know about levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action. You will want to understand how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress. You will want to know about the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that you might face during and after a violent encounter.

  • You will want to develop good practical proficiency with your gun. That includes practical marksmanship, i. e., being able to deploy your gun and get good hits quickly at various distances. It also includes skills such as moving and shooting, use of cover and concealment, reloading quickly, clearing malfunctions, and moving safely with a loaded gun.

How much training you get and how proficient you become will be up to you, BUT --

  • If we wind up in a violent confrontation, we can't know ahead of time what will happen and how it will happen. And thus we can't know ahead of time what we will need to be able to do to solve our problem.

  • If we find ourselves in a violent confrontation, we will respond with whatever skills we have available at the time. That might be good enough, or it might not be.

  • The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the more likely we'll be to be able to respond appropriately and effectively. The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the luckier we'll be.

johnwilliamson062 said:
"Hey, I bought this gun, shot a decent group at 20 feet on my first day, and now I keep it loaded under the bed--and God help whoever breaks in!"
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Laugh if you like, but the reality people with this level of training and mentality defend their lives successfully with small arms across the country every day......
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People with various skill levels have successfully defended themselves. People with various skill levels have also failed to successfully defend themselves

Being successful basically means that you were able to solve your problem with the skills you had available. But if your skills are not up to the task, you will have an unhappy result.

How good you want to be is up to you. In any event probably very few of us are in a position or will want to make the investment in time, effort and training dollars to reach the proficiency level of a special forces operator; and for some of us old guys, we'll never again have the physical abilities necessary. But nonetheless it will always be a fact that none of us can know, when the balloon goes up, what problems we will be faced with or what we will need to be able to do to solve them. So the more we can do and the better we can to it, the luckier we're likely to be.
 
I am a huge proponent of getting all the training one can afford or find when it comes to handling/shooting guns, particularly for self defense.

On the other hand, I am a huge proponent of the 2A and the right of the individual to defend oneself against an attacker meant to do harm.

What I mean by that is I recommend training. I train with professionals when I can afford it. I train at home when I can't. But, before I trained I still carried a pistol. I feel its my right to carry in my defense whether I have had training or not.

Some people get all ruffled up about that but there are deaths of bystanders from the bullets of police officers that didn't hit their mark. Cops are trained and some still cannot shoot in a stressful situation.
 
How good you want to be is up to you. In any event probably very few of us are in a position or will want to make the investment in time, effort and training dollars to reach the proficiency level of a special forces operator; and for some of us old guys, we'll never again have the physical abilities necessary. But nonetheless it will always be a fact that none of us can know, when the balloon goes up, what problems we will be faced with or what we will need to be able to do to solve them. So the more we can do and the better we can to it, the luckier we're likely to be.
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Well said Frank. OhioGuy take some of the classes you mentioned. You will quickly learn that being prepared to use force in a violent encounter is an ongoing process. Your questions show you understand the challenges. Good luck.
 
Thanks for the responses!

A local range does offer a lot of classes, and I intend to take them. I know there are tactical training schools within a few hours of me in Ohio that offer what sounds like commando-style training--probably overkill for defending oneself against someone who just wants to steal a wallet.

I'm not sure how to weigh the risks vs the benefits of carrying, for instance. When do I become sufficiently good with a gun that I actually increase the safety of myself and those around me, rather than present greater risk because I don't know what I'm doing yet?

I suppose everyone will arrive at the answers differently.
 
OhioGuy, when you're ready to carry is a good question. Some folks I know never get to the point they are comfortable carrying a gun. Others start carrying one without enough training and skill. Some carry one just to scare away bad guys! Get the training and carry around the house for a day or two before you venture out is my advice. Practice diligently. It will feel awkward at first. For what it's worth, if I can avoid a gunfight by giving a thug my wallet, it's all his. Not a thing in it worth dieing or killing someone over. Every situation has to be assessed based on the circumstances. Good luck.

One more thing: Those "commando" skills might be necessary to survive a violent encounter. It's the reason they offer the training.
 
I'm not sure how to weigh the risks vs the benefits of carrying, for instance. When do I become sufficiently good with a gun that I actually increase the safety of myself and those around me, rather than present greater risk because I don't know what I'm doing yet?
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That is more of a judgment issue than a training issue. The most poorly trained shooter who properly assesses his situation and takes appropriate action is much less a threat than the NRA trained instructor who he thinks he's "got this" because he can shoot dime sized groups in paper at the range.
 
Receive the best training you can. Practice and shoot as often as you can so that you master the firearm you're likely to carry or use in a violent confrontation. Cop, combat operator, civilian, it really matters not. Despite the noise and confusion (and blood?) you must always keep a cool head.

I've witnessed enough gun play - both good guys and bad guys (a bad guy pulled a semi auto on me from 20' away and needlessly racked the slide causing a double-feed malfunction - for me a lifesaving double-feed, BTW, not so good for him), to tell that Murphy's law reigns supreme when carrying a semi auto pistol. I urge you to practice clearing malfunction drills and carry with you always an extra mag - not so much for the extra ammo but to help you get your gun back in business if it malfunctions. Godspeed.
 
Some things that I think are important.

  • In a real-world defensive scenario, not getting shot is as important as shooting back. Therefore moving and being able to make hits while moving is important and training can really provide good benefits in this area.
  • Being able to use a gun for self-defense without shooting yourself or someone else who should remain unshot is important. You need some training with shoot/no shoot targets and training on how not to sweep your own body parts or point your gun at innocents while moving around with a firearm in a gunfight. If you plan to carry the gun, knowing how to draw and holster safely are critical skills.
  • Shootings often take place in low light. You need to train to be able to use a light safely and effectively in a defensive scenario. That also applies to both weapon-mounted and handheld lights.
  • The best method of self-defense is to avoid getting into a self-defense scenario in the first place. Some training on how to do that, both from a de-escalation point of view and from a situational awareness/avoidance point of view may be the best training you can possibly receive.
  • If you are forced to shoot in self-defense, an understanding of what to expect from the justice system is important. Just as critical is knowing how you should behave and what you should/shouldn't say to the authorities.
  • Interacting with others and with law enforcement while going about armed can have some potential pitfalls. It's good to get some education on what to do/say and what not to do/say.
 
Excellent advice above! In the Army wearing civilian clothing in Vietnam I carried a .38 or a 1911 .45, and (in a jeep) a Rem. 870 or an M-16). In the U.S. I carried a .38 special. Today (with a carry permit) I usually carry nothing, but may carry a .380 or 9 mm if I think it is appropriate for the location. I realize it may be better to carry "something" whenever possible, but I have some faith that I can judge when carry is important.
 
Someone above remarked on how some people say that won't carry a thousand dollar gun in the event of its being used in a SD situation and they don't want it taken in for evidence likely never to be seen again. So, they'd rather carry a cheaper gun so they don't mind losing it if it gets taken away.

And, as rightly pointed out above, in comparison with legal costs, etc., the cost of the pricey gun taken away will pale in comparison.

But given the remarkably short odds of any civilian really getting into a gunfight - ergo, equally unlikely they'll lose their nice gun - should the need arise and your life or the life of a loved one is in genuine peril, is your life not worth carrying the best gun and ammo you can afford?
 
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The direction of your thinking is good, and I would encourage procuring what training you can manage.

At the same time, though, if you look at the layout of your house and places you frequent, and think in advance about lines of fire, potential cover, and how to defend certain positions, you are ahead of most people.
 
OhioGuy, I will add one more thing. You have avoided the trap that most self-defense shooters fall into, i.e., worrying more about which weapon to choose than the knowledge and skills needed to responsibly use that weapon. Good for you!

Since it has been brought up a couple of times, I will add my thoughts on self-defense weapons. Any service caliber will do. Some like revolvers, others pistols. There are pros and cons for each. Some will tell you that you need a high-end handgun to adequately protect yourself and family, and if you don't spend the money you don't value you and yours highly enough. This is absolutely not true. There are countless excellent choices across the spectrum of pricing. Try a variety of pistols and revolvers, talk to knowledgeable and trusted folks, and buy what you are most comfortable with. You are far better spending the extra on ammo, a good holster and training in my not so humble opinion.
 
OhioGuy said:
Thanks for the responses!

A local range does offer a lot of classes, and I intend to take them. I know there are tactical training schools within a few hours of me in Ohio that offer what sounds like commando-style training--probably overkill for defending oneself against someone who just wants to steal a wallet.

I'm not sure how to weigh the risks vs the benefits of carrying, for instance. When do I become sufficiently good with a gun that I actually increase the safety of myself and those around me, rather than present greater risk because I don't know what I'm doing yet?

I suppose everyone will arrive at the answers differently.
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If you're talking about Tactical Defense Institute, by all means take their curriculum. They have as good a grasp on civilian self defense needs as anyone. Their handgun program is fantastic. There is no such thing as too proficient in a violent encounter.

There is no way to know what skills you will need when time comes for your gunfight.

www.tdiohio.com

Greg Ellifritz is a Columbus, OH based instructor at TDI who has his own training program.

www.activeresponsetraining.net

You won't go wrong with either of these choices.
 
When do I become sufficiently good with a gun that I actually increase the safety of myself and those around me, rather than present greater risk because I don't know what I'm doing yet?
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when you've trained enough to know when and how to operate your equipment within you abilities.
 
Training? Practice? I thought you just point a gun in the general direction of the bad guy and he falls over in fear. Of at least that is what a lot of folks "on the net" seem to think.

Jim
 
For home, you should be accurate at the longest distance inside your home. 21' will typically be sufficient. For a beginner, I would take one class, practice a while, and take a follow up class to refine.

With concealed carry there is much more involved in order to be highly competent. Plan on about 6 one hour training sessions plus practice time. For those who really enjoy it, it's an ongoing process.

As mentioned, also work on the non-shooting related skills such as legal issues, mindset, and after event planning.
 
In conversations with some acquaintences, who own guns and in some cases carry (although not always, or everywhere) it seems they have surprisingly little training or practice. Almost as though "Hey, I bought this gun, shot a decent group at 20 feet on my first day, and now I keep it loaded under the bed--and God help whoever breaks in!"

Others, hearing of Orlando or other horrible assault situations, take an 8 hour CCW class, buy a small pocket pistol and a holster, and begin carrying with (seeming) confidence that they'll take down a crazed shooter with a rifle, should the need arise.
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The average armed citizen is far better prepared to handle the first scenario (happens all the time) than the second one. The second scenario is complicated. Trained law enforcement "die" all the time in training.
 
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