Okay so after discussing with my brother about trying out the outdoor range in our area it got me thinking about shooting in the rain. Im sure that the lowered visibility would affect accuracy to a certain extent, but lets say for example there was nothing to limit visibility. Would the rain change the bullets trajectory after hitting a raindrop or does it just go so fast that it doesnt hit the rain? In the same way that a sniper would have to calculate for wind do they include rain in the equation? I know it seems like a stupid question that maybe only a physicist could explain but im sure that some of you have enough experience to enlighten me somewhat.
How much does rain affect accuracy?
- Thread starter TysonTB
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Buudy and I went shooting in the rain...
Not a hard rain, but big drops...Shootingmostly .22s, it did seem that our groups were larger than normal...Center fires didn't seem to be affected...Not anykind of scientific proof....We discussed this question onthe way home....Would be interesting to seesome scientific results.
Not a hard rain, but big drops...Shootingmostly .22s, it did seem that our groups were larger than normal...Center fires didn't seem to be affected...Not anykind of scientific proof....We discussed this question onthe way home....Would be interesting to seesome scientific results.
Kirk Keller
New member
In my experience shooting in many torrential downpours in the North Carolina Police Combat Pistol League, the accuracy of the weapon is not affected, but your view of the sights can be impaired by the rain on the slide and steam if the gun is hot. We never saw any noticable decrease in scores and we've shot in hurricanes before...
Smokey Joe
New member
Ricochet off a raindrop
(Hah--sounds like a song title from a 1940's musical!)
Seriously--Bullets ricochet off water bodies because the water just can't get out of the way fast enough. I have personally ricochet'd off water, falling off the outside of a water-skiing turn, and it feels just as hard as bouncing and sliding along a gymnasium floor--except for the floor burns! And that was only maybe 50 fps, not hundreds or thousands of fps like a bullet.
Hydrofoil craft work the same way--the foil--and the craft--is moving so fast that the water supports the craft's weight, because the water just can't get out of the way fast enough. When the craft slows down, the foil works less and less well until finally the craft is floating on its regular hull, and moving at the speed of a "regular" boat. As to speed, again a hydrofoil will be moving at less than 100 fps. (88 fps = 60 mph.)
However, in the case of a raindrop, the drop is only about the size of the bullet, or smaller, and there's air on the other side of the drop, not more water, so it has no trouble breaking up and getting out of the way of the bullet. (Air is softer than water, and air is compressible, wheras water is not.) And the air the bullet is pushing to the side helps push the raindrop out of the way, also. You may have stood beside a road on a rainy day and noticed some of the raindrops being pushed aside around the moving cars.
There's another factor: The bullet is moving so much faster than the raindrop that the liklihood of their colliding is very low. In the early part of WWI, machine guns were fired right through the paths of airplane propellors--almost always with no damage to the propellors! because the bullets were moving so much faster.
Bottom line: IMHO, raindrops will not materially affect the flight of bullets.
I have not tested this by going out and target shooting in a downpour, and Lord willing I never will! It would be interesting to read someone ELSE's report who carefully tried this.
(Hah--sounds like a song title from a 1940's musical!)
Seriously--Bullets ricochet off water bodies because the water just can't get out of the way fast enough. I have personally ricochet'd off water, falling off the outside of a water-skiing turn, and it feels just as hard as bouncing and sliding along a gymnasium floor--except for the floor burns! And that was only maybe 50 fps, not hundreds or thousands of fps like a bullet.
Hydrofoil craft work the same way--the foil--and the craft--is moving so fast that the water supports the craft's weight, because the water just can't get out of the way fast enough. When the craft slows down, the foil works less and less well until finally the craft is floating on its regular hull, and moving at the speed of a "regular" boat. As to speed, again a hydrofoil will be moving at less than 100 fps. (88 fps = 60 mph.)
However, in the case of a raindrop, the drop is only about the size of the bullet, or smaller, and there's air on the other side of the drop, not more water, so it has no trouble breaking up and getting out of the way of the bullet. (Air is softer than water, and air is compressible, wheras water is not.) And the air the bullet is pushing to the side helps push the raindrop out of the way, also. You may have stood beside a road on a rainy day and noticed some of the raindrops being pushed aside around the moving cars.
There's another factor: The bullet is moving so much faster than the raindrop that the liklihood of their colliding is very low. In the early part of WWI, machine guns were fired right through the paths of airplane propellors--almost always with no damage to the propellors! because the bullets were moving so much faster.
Bottom line: IMHO, raindrops will not materially affect the flight of bullets.
I have not tested this by going out and target shooting in a downpour, and Lord willing I never will! It would be interesting to read someone ELSE's report who carefully tried this.
"In the early part of WWI, machine guns were fired right through the paths of airplane propellors--almost always with no damage to the propellors! because the bullets were moving so much faster."
Well... Actually in the very early days of firing through the propellers, bullets *did* routinely hit them, and the aviators quickly figured out that they needed to do something about it. At first they applied armor to the props, but eventually synchronized their guns to fire at times when the bullets would not hit the prop.
As for rain affecting shooting, I did some math on that once and convinced myself that it's unlikely that a bullet will actually contact a raindrop while in flight, simply because there is so much space between the drops. The bullet travels fast enough that there is almost always a free path for it to follow from muzzle to target. I don't know what happens to the few bullets that *do* manage to hit raindrops, but I know that so far my personal best high power rifle score was fired in *pouring* rain. Maybe there's something Zen-ish going on...
Tim
Well... Actually in the very early days of firing through the propellers, bullets *did* routinely hit them, and the aviators quickly figured out that they needed to do something about it. At first they applied armor to the props, but eventually synchronized their guns to fire at times when the bullets would not hit the prop.
As for rain affecting shooting, I did some math on that once and convinced myself that it's unlikely that a bullet will actually contact a raindrop while in flight, simply because there is so much space between the drops. The bullet travels fast enough that there is almost always a free path for it to follow from muzzle to target. I don't know what happens to the few bullets that *do* manage to hit raindrops, but I know that so far my personal best high power rifle score was fired in *pouring* rain. Maybe there's something Zen-ish going on...
Tim
I dont understand how, as several of you are saying, that the speed of the bullet will allow for a path to the target free of droplets. Distance between drops etc, I dont understand how this will make chances of an impact void. However, the "envelope" of air around the bullet would (in theory)prevent a drop from actually contacting the bullet. Can someone explain the "clear path theory". I just dont get it.
~z
~z
Here's my theory...
Picture the path your bullet will take from muzzle to target. For simplicity, assume it is perfectly straight, rather than curved. This will introduce some error, but not much. Now imagine that you can look down this "tube" during a rainstorm and see how often a raindrop passes through it at some point along its length. For the purposes of discussion, let's just say you see one drop every three seconds.
Now calculate how long it will take for your bullet to travel to the target. Again, just for discussion, let's say it's 100 milliseconds. Your bullet, then, has a three second clear window to travel through in 100 milliseconds. If you fire continuously, about 1 bullet in 30 (3 seconds divided by 100 milliseconds) will contact a raindrop (either by hitting one head-on, or having one fall on it).
It remains to be seen if this occasional contact can cause a 10 to turn into a 9, but...
Tim
Picture the path your bullet will take from muzzle to target. For simplicity, assume it is perfectly straight, rather than curved. This will introduce some error, but not much. Now imagine that you can look down this "tube" during a rainstorm and see how often a raindrop passes through it at some point along its length. For the purposes of discussion, let's just say you see one drop every three seconds.
Now calculate how long it will take for your bullet to travel to the target. Again, just for discussion, let's say it's 100 milliseconds. Your bullet, then, has a three second clear window to travel through in 100 milliseconds. If you fire continuously, about 1 bullet in 30 (3 seconds divided by 100 milliseconds) will contact a raindrop (either by hitting one head-on, or having one fall on it).
It remains to be seen if this occasional contact can cause a 10 to turn into a 9, but...
Tim
Smokey Joe
New member
Bullets and things
TimRB--I read that Anthony Fokker, the designer of fighter planes for Germany, used his boyhood experience throwing rocks at windmill blades to figure out that MOST of the machine gun bullets would go right past the aircraft propellor, when the propellor wasn't in the way. (Fokker was Dutch; apparently Dutch boys threw rocks @ windmill blades regularly. Can't say that surprises me any.) Read this years ago, sorry, can't cite a reference.
Yes, once in a while a blade would be hit, and they armored the blades and then synchronized the blade/gun just as you said.
Zeisloft--Consider the whole circle a 2-blade propellor makes. Consider how wide the prop is. At any given moment, The prop blade is likely to be somewhere else in its arc than right in front of the machine gun muzzle. The machine gun bullet, moving much faster than the prop, goes through that unoccupied space.
Or consider the air during a downpour of rain--At any given moment, most of the air does NOT contain a drop of water, even during a heavy rain. So the liklihood of a bullet striking a water droplet is very low--the droplets of rain are almost standing still compared to the bullet.
We tend to think of a downpour as nearly solid water, because (1) we are so much bigger than the drops of rain, and (2) we move so slowly by comparison with the drops.
Bottom line: The smaller you are, and the faster you move, the harder you are to hit.
TimRB--I read that Anthony Fokker, the designer of fighter planes for Germany, used his boyhood experience throwing rocks at windmill blades to figure out that MOST of the machine gun bullets would go right past the aircraft propellor, when the propellor wasn't in the way. (Fokker was Dutch; apparently Dutch boys threw rocks @ windmill blades regularly. Can't say that surprises me any.) Read this years ago, sorry, can't cite a reference.
Yes, once in a while a blade would be hit, and they armored the blades and then synchronized the blade/gun just as you said.
Zeisloft--Consider the whole circle a 2-blade propellor makes. Consider how wide the prop is. At any given moment, The prop blade is likely to be somewhere else in its arc than right in front of the machine gun muzzle. The machine gun bullet, moving much faster than the prop, goes through that unoccupied space.
Or consider the air during a downpour of rain--At any given moment, most of the air does NOT contain a drop of water, even during a heavy rain. So the liklihood of a bullet striking a water droplet is very low--the droplets of rain are almost standing still compared to the bullet.
We tend to think of a downpour as nearly solid water, because (1) we are so much bigger than the drops of rain, and (2) we move so slowly by comparison with the drops.
Bottom line: The smaller you are, and the faster you move, the harder you are to hit.
I was just curious if you get a large enough mass of falling water if it's possible in a perfect physics world to get a ricochet... anything is possible in a perfect physics world, it would just be cool 
Definately agree with the points made... although if you could somehow devise a strategy to bounce from raindrop to raindrop to deviate the path of a bullet... it would be like the trick shot of a lifetime...
Definately agree with the points made... although if you could somehow devise a strategy to bounce from raindrop to raindrop to deviate the path of a bullet... it would be like the trick shot of a lifetime...
leadcounsel
Moderator
I think Tim is onto something with this, so I'll pick the ball up and run with it.
In the line of site that he described, lets say there is water at SOME point along this imaginary tube at all times. Given that bullets travel faster than the speed of sound and reach your target almost instantaneously, barring anything like and air pocket around the bullet it will collide with water at some point in its path.
However, given that the bullet is traveling at 900+ fps with hundreds of foot pounds of pressure, my intuition says that a single water droplet won't affect the bullet's trajectory. Now, raining cats and dogs might affect it....
I have a somewhat related wonder?
Remember in the twilight zone episode with the creature on the wing? If you shot a bullet out a plane window, perpendicular to the directon of the wind, at a target on the wing of the plane, would your bullet travel true to your aim or would it be affected by the wind and be completely blown off course?
In the line of site that he described, lets say there is water at SOME point along this imaginary tube at all times. Given that bullets travel faster than the speed of sound and reach your target almost instantaneously, barring anything like and air pocket around the bullet it will collide with water at some point in its path.
However, given that the bullet is traveling at 900+ fps with hundreds of foot pounds of pressure, my intuition says that a single water droplet won't affect the bullet's trajectory. Now, raining cats and dogs might affect it....
I have a somewhat related wonder?
Remember in the twilight zone episode with the creature on the wing? If you shot a bullet out a plane window, perpendicular to the directon of the wind, at a target on the wing of the plane, would your bullet travel true to your aim or would it be affected by the wind and be completely blown off course?
"If you shot a bullet out a plane window, perpendicular to the directon of the wind, at a target on the wing of the plane, would your bullet travel true to your aim or would it be affected by the wind and be completely blown off course?"
If you were shooting at a target on the wing of your own plane, the bullet would think it was travelling through a 100 mph (or whatever) crosswind. If you were travelling in vacuum, then it would fly straight to the target, but then your airplane wouldn't work. Go figure.
Tim
If you were shooting at a target on the wing of your own plane, the bullet would think it was travelling through a 100 mph (or whatever) crosswind. If you were travelling in vacuum, then it would fly straight to the target, but then your airplane wouldn't work. Go figure.
Tim
Yes and no
A vortex is surrounding the projectile while in supersonic flight so the actual rain drops will never come into direct contact with the bullet. However, the trajectory will change due to the atmospheric conditions. The density altitude will be different when its raining then it would be on a clear day. Therefore the rain will affect the bullet but not by direct contact.
A vortex is surrounding the projectile while in supersonic flight so the actual rain drops will never come into direct contact with the bullet. However, the trajectory will change due to the atmospheric conditions. The density altitude will be different when its raining then it would be on a clear day. Therefore the rain will affect the bullet but not by direct contact.
Dunno how it affects accuracy (I was a young hooligan more interested in shooting a lot than shooting well) but I know the shock wave of a passing bullet can make water condense out the air- on a foggy/ drizzly day, we were shooting rifles in a pasture, and the bullets appeared to make contrails of fog ....
dakota.potts
New member
The question was asked in the context of a sniper. If we're talking shots of 1,000 yards or more, I'm going to say heavy rains may affect the shot.
Rapid change in humidity, turbulent crosswinds (maybe changing direction many times), change in temperature change in air pressure. In Florida, we can have rain in a 100 yard patch and then no rain on either side of it
But I doubt an actual drop of water does much.
Rapid change in humidity, turbulent crosswinds (maybe changing direction many times), change in temperature change in air pressure. In Florida, we can have rain in a 100 yard patch and then no rain on either side of it
But I doubt an actual drop of water does much.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
The idea that you could make a .3 inch diameter tube and run it 100 yards in a decent rainstorm it isn't going to be hit by rain almost constantly seems absurd to me. No way for 5-600 yards.
Even if there is a compressed air "shield" around the bullet, when that "shield" hits a incompressible heavier than air water droplet the air compression in that area will increase. This will result in a force against the bullet. So, even with the compressed air buffer, I think there will still be a force on the bullet. Probably reduced.
Given the period of time the effect will be present, milliseconds at most, the effect is likely negligible up until the bullet drops through the sound barrier. At that point the turbulence from passing the sound barrier probably makes the water droplet effects irrelevant. A bullet that is subsonic to begin with isn't going to be shot at that long of a range.
No matter the science, the consensus seems to be the effect is negligible.
Even if there is a compressed air "shield" around the bullet, when that "shield" hits a incompressible heavier than air water droplet the air compression in that area will increase. This will result in a force against the bullet. So, even with the compressed air buffer, I think there will still be a force on the bullet. Probably reduced.
Given the period of time the effect will be present, milliseconds at most, the effect is likely negligible up until the bullet drops through the sound barrier. At that point the turbulence from passing the sound barrier probably makes the water droplet effects irrelevant. A bullet that is subsonic to begin with isn't going to be shot at that long of a range.
No matter the science, the consensus seems to be the effect is negligible.