How many shots to wear out a Rifle Barrel ?
- Thread starter TX Hunter
- Start date
32 caliber (or 8mm) barrels of standard service grade or arsenal quality will probably last about 10,000 rounds of full power loads before one sees accuracy fall of. This is assuming it shoots about 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yards. With loads reduced 10% (maximum amount to reduce), you may get 30% more life from it.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Pressure and heat are the enemy.
Pressures above 58k significantly increase wear. SAAMI max for 8mm Mauser is 57k, so keep it cool-ish and loaded to standards and it'll be a loooong time.
Pressures above 58k significantly increase wear. SAAMI max for 8mm Mauser is 57k, so keep it cool-ish and loaded to standards and it'll be a loooong time.
Brian Pfleuger claims:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf
lists the 8mm Mauser max average pressure at 35,000 PSI or 37,000 CUP.
That's a ways below 57,000 of either method.
SAAMI's document:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf
lists the 8mm Mauser max average pressure at 35,000 PSI or 37,000 CUP.
That's a ways below 57,000 of either method.
Define accuracy? For such a rifle the 10,000 round number seems reasonble for hunting, plinking accuracy. But for a rifle to maintain target grade accuarcy the number of rounds would be much less. 5,000 or even as little as 2,000 with some hotter chamberings.
Any way you look at it, if you can afford the ammo to wear out a barrel, you can afford a new one.
Any way you look at it, if you can afford the ammo to wear out a barrel, you can afford a new one.
Jim Watson
New member
SAAMI specs for 8mm are artificially low to protect Us Colonials from demolishing 1888s with tighter barrels and weaker actions than most 1898s.
In Europe, it is assumed that you know what you are shooting and can pick mild 8x57J for the old guns and full power 8x57JS for the later ones. I think it was Ken Waters who figured the 8mm '98 would do about 97% of .30-06 ballistics.
Springfield Armory once found that a .30-06 had not lost any accuracy at 6000 but changed out test barrels then anyhow because throat erosion was visible and they did not want to risk a sudden drop in performance affecting ammunition testing.
I once saw a .308 fail to make it from 4600 to 4700 shots with any usable accuracy on a regulation target. No doubt it would have been adequate for shooting at foreigners for a lot longer.
In Europe, it is assumed that you know what you are shooting and can pick mild 8x57J for the old guns and full power 8x57JS for the later ones. I think it was Ken Waters who figured the 8mm '98 would do about 97% of .30-06 ballistics.
Springfield Armory once found that a .30-06 had not lost any accuracy at 6000 but changed out test barrels then anyhow because throat erosion was visible and they did not want to risk a sudden drop in performance affecting ammunition testing.
I once saw a .308 fail to make it from 4600 to 4700 shots with any usable accuracy on a regulation target. No doubt it would have been adequate for shooting at foreigners for a lot longer.
jmr40 asks:
Most factory sporters using the same charge vs bore area shooting 1/2 or so MOA will last twice that long; 6000 rounds.
Arsenal quality barrels and others starting out at 1 MOA or more will last about 10,000 rounds. Which is what the M1 and M14 service rifles have when their bore gage reads "10" indicating the end of normal service life and "10" was read on their bore erosion gages.
Increase the charge weight by 40% for a given bore size and barrel life gets cut in half. Double it and life's only 1/4th as much; 750 rounds.
About half of my observations been with 30 caliber barrels in M1's and M14's as well as a few 30 caliber magnums. The match grade service rifle versions were set aside at about 1500 rounds for the .30-06 ones and used only for local, non critical matches then rebarreled at about 4000 rounds when their bore erosion gage read 5. For the 7.62 NATO barrels in Garands and M14's, they were no longer used for top level matches but were rebarreled at about 5000 rounds when the gage read 5. Bolt action match rifles in .308 Win. would do pretty good for about 1500 rounds but drop off a bit until about 3000 rounds; note their accuracy levels better than those semiauto service rifles. The other half's been checking what the benchresters get.
In my experience and observations, a top quality match grade barrel properly fit to a well built rifle will shoot under 1/4 MOA at 100 yards for 3000 rounds when the powder charge equals 1 grain of powder for each square millimeter of the bore's cross sectional area and peak pressure's at about 52,000 CUP.
Most factory sporters using the same charge vs bore area shooting 1/2 or so MOA will last twice that long; 6000 rounds.
Arsenal quality barrels and others starting out at 1 MOA or more will last about 10,000 rounds. Which is what the M1 and M14 service rifles have when their bore gage reads "10" indicating the end of normal service life and "10" was read on their bore erosion gages.
Increase the charge weight by 40% for a given bore size and barrel life gets cut in half. Double it and life's only 1/4th as much; 750 rounds.
About half of my observations been with 30 caliber barrels in M1's and M14's as well as a few 30 caliber magnums. The match grade service rifle versions were set aside at about 1500 rounds for the .30-06 ones and used only for local, non critical matches then rebarreled at about 4000 rounds when their bore erosion gage read 5. For the 7.62 NATO barrels in Garands and M14's, they were no longer used for top level matches but were rebarreled at about 5000 rounds when the gage read 5. Bolt action match rifles in .308 Win. would do pretty good for about 1500 rounds but drop off a bit until about 3000 rounds; note their accuracy levels better than those semiauto service rifles. The other half's been checking what the benchresters get.
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I've worn out a number of 30-06 target rifle barrels over 15-20 years of competition shooting NRA XTC matches. XTC matches include rapid fire strings which result in some elevated barrel temps. I found that my target rifles were capable of shooting master/HM scores up to something like 6500-7500 rounds, then start throwing unexplainable fliers.
Regards,
hps
Regards,
hps
Middleton Tompkins, noted Long Range & Palma Rifle Champion, says the life of a barrel is about 3 seconds.
After that you will start seeing deteriation of groups.
Sooo, what you have to do, is figure out how long your bullet stays in the barrel, then go from there.
For a 24 inch barrel that would be Time in barrel = (V1+V2) / 2
V1 would be '0", V2 would be MV. (Lets say 2600 FPS)
So lets say 0 + 2600 / 2 = 1300
So now we divide 1300 by 2 (24" is 2 feet) = 650
So 650 rounds would spend 1 second in the barrel.
To have a bullet in the barrel would take 1950 rounds.
Again thats for target quality. I don't know how he accounts for faster bullets causing more wear. I think its because he shot 155 grn Palma bullets at 2900 fps.
Personally I don't shoot that well.
You can tell when your barrels going south by the X count.
As a side note: We all know copper is softer then steel so it stands to reason a steel jacketed bullet would do more damage to the barrel the copper, and lead being softer then both, shoot lead bullets would extend the life of your barrel.
Barrels first start going at the throat. That's because of the burning gas eating away at the throat. Choosing the proper powder for a given round will reduce throat wair.
Also, on my target rifles I start with a longer barrel. As the throat starts going south, I can take the barrel off, set it back, tread and re-chamber it and extend the life of the barrel.
Take into account, more barrels are destroyed by improper cleaning then wear.
Especially on military rifles where GIs use a jointed steel cleaning rod cleaning from the muzzle.
After that you will start seeing deteriation of groups.
Sooo, what you have to do, is figure out how long your bullet stays in the barrel, then go from there.
For a 24 inch barrel that would be Time in barrel = (V1+V2) / 2
V1 would be '0", V2 would be MV. (Lets say 2600 FPS)
So lets say 0 + 2600 / 2 = 1300
So now we divide 1300 by 2 (24" is 2 feet) = 650
So 650 rounds would spend 1 second in the barrel.
To have a bullet in the barrel would take 1950 rounds.
Again thats for target quality. I don't know how he accounts for faster bullets causing more wear. I think its because he shot 155 grn Palma bullets at 2900 fps.
Personally I don't shoot that well.
You can tell when your barrels going south by the X count.
As a side note: We all know copper is softer then steel so it stands to reason a steel jacketed bullet would do more damage to the barrel the copper, and lead being softer then both, shoot lead bullets would extend the life of your barrel.
Barrels first start going at the throat. That's because of the burning gas eating away at the throat. Choosing the proper powder for a given round will reduce throat wair.
Also, on my target rifles I start with a longer barrel. As the throat starts going south, I can take the barrel off, set it back, tread and re-chamber it and extend the life of the barrel.
Take into account, more barrels are destroyed by improper cleaning then wear.
Especially on military rifles where GIs use a jointed steel cleaning rod cleaning from the muzzle.
I would load lead bullets, but am not experienced with gas checks and all that. I just use Copper Jacketed 150 Grain Soft Points. about 23 Dollars per Hundred. My Favorite Load is a Speer .323 150 Grain Soft Point, over 44.2 Grains IMR 4895 with CCI Primers. I form my 8x57 cases from 30 06 brass that I convert using an RCBS Trim and Form Die, then cutting the neck, chamfer, then Full Leingth Resize, I turn down the excess with my Lyman Trimmer, then re chamfer before loading. I have not had any case failures, but have anealed the necks on some that have been loaded a couple of times. I have however thought about going to lead bullets for the economy of it .
I really like shooting this Rifle though, im so familiar with it it feels like an extension of my arm.
I really like shooting this Rifle though, im so familiar with it it feels like an extension of my arm.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Bart B. said:
Indeed. Fat fingers or something. I don't know how I got 57.
kraigwy mentions:
Considering that most 168 to 190 grain bullets fired from a .308 Win. in a 26 inch barrel (what he's basing his claim on) take about .0013 seconds to go from case mouth to the muzzle. Dividing 3000 by .0013 gives 2,308 rounds of barrel life. And that's about when top competitors would start noticing accuracy from their .308 Win. match grade barrels start dropping off. Several top classified high power match rifle folks would not take a .308 Win. barrel to the Nationals if it had more than 1500 rounds through it.
30 caliber magnums with a shorter barrel time would show a longer barrel life using that formula; that's not the way it is and Mid knows that, too. The barrel's he's chambered for the 6.5x.284 round have a bit less barrel time but they only get about 1,000 rounds of barrel life, if that much. And the 30 caliber magnums popular for long range matches would last about 1200 rounds at top performance. When my good friend Tom Treinen set the 1000 yard record at the Nationals in 1970 with a 7mm Rem Mag, folks using that round soon learned it got about 800 rounds of accurate life for long range.
David Tubb was one of the first to use the .243 Win. in high power competition; he told me in the late 1990's he got about 1500 rounds of usable barrel life and he wouldn't take one to the Nationals with more than 1000 rounds through it. Boots Obemeyer (match barrel maker) said his barrels got about the same using the .243.
Having shot matches with Mid for years starting in 1965, I've oft times heard him say that long before Sierra's 155-gr. Palma bullet came out in 1991. And he's right but only for what he used to figure it out.
Considering that most 168 to 190 grain bullets fired from a .308 Win. in a 26 inch barrel (what he's basing his claim on) take about .0013 seconds to go from case mouth to the muzzle. Dividing 3000 by .0013 gives 2,308 rounds of barrel life. And that's about when top competitors would start noticing accuracy from their .308 Win. match grade barrels start dropping off. Several top classified high power match rifle folks would not take a .308 Win. barrel to the Nationals if it had more than 1500 rounds through it.
30 caliber magnums with a shorter barrel time would show a longer barrel life using that formula; that's not the way it is and Mid knows that, too. The barrel's he's chambered for the 6.5x.284 round have a bit less barrel time but they only get about 1,000 rounds of barrel life, if that much. And the 30 caliber magnums popular for long range matches would last about 1200 rounds at top performance. When my good friend Tom Treinen set the 1000 yard record at the Nationals in 1970 with a 7mm Rem Mag, folks using that round soon learned it got about 800 rounds of accurate life for long range.
David Tubb was one of the first to use the .243 Win. in high power competition; he told me in the late 1990's he got about 1500 rounds of usable barrel life and he wouldn't take one to the Nationals with more than 1000 rounds through it. Boots Obemeyer (match barrel maker) said his barrels got about the same using the .243.
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It depends on pressure and heat, as has been stated. Also the more powder one forces through the smaller hole plays a part as well.
Large case capacity rounds (compared to bore size) erode barrels faster.
Rapid fire erodes barrels faster.
And what your standard of minimum acceptable accuracy is plays a bit part too.
Taget and varmint hunters discard a barrel as worn out, that a deer hunter would still be happy with for years.
Using moderate or standard loads in your 8mm, I would expect between 5-10,000 rounds before you see a serious decline in accuracy, for general use. And, barrels are relatively cheap.
Large case capacity rounds (compared to bore size) erode barrels faster.
Rapid fire erodes barrels faster.
And what your standard of minimum acceptable accuracy is plays a bit part too.
Taget and varmint hunters discard a barrel as worn out, that a deer hunter would still be happy with for years.
Using moderate or standard loads in your 8mm, I would expect between 5-10,000 rounds before you see a serious decline in accuracy, for general use. And, barrels are relatively cheap.
44 Amp,
I have seen some new unissued barrels for this Rifle, I may buy one while they are still available and put it up.
This is one of those rifles that is fun to shoot. Mine has the bent down bolt handle like the Yugo 48s have, and the action is just darn perfect. Thanks for all the help.
Rick
I have seen some new unissued barrels for this Rifle, I may buy one while they are still available and put it up.
This is one of those rifles that is fun to shoot. Mine has the bent down bolt handle like the Yugo 48s have, and the action is just darn perfect. Thanks for all the help.
Rick
Heavy Metal 1
New member
"It's the thorat of the barrel that takes the hit. Stick powders are hard on the throats. Using ball powder once in awhile can help delay throat errosion."
I thought, perhaps mistakenly that most ball powders were double based w/ a high nitroglycerin content & that burned hotter than single based stick powders. I really don't know though..can someone educate me on that? A PM would be ok so as not to hijack this thread.
I had always wondered about barrrel life too because for a time I possessed my grandfather's old Win 25-35 that was made in like 1903 or something and the rileing was just a memory. I wondered how many rounds went down that tube over the years.
I thought, perhaps mistakenly that most ball powders were double based w/ a high nitroglycerin content & that burned hotter than single based stick powders. I really don't know though..can someone educate me on that? A PM would be ok so as not to hijack this thread.
I had always wondered about barrrel life too because for a time I possessed my grandfather's old Win 25-35 that was made in like 1903 or something and the rileing was just a memory. I wondered how many rounds went down that tube over the years.