How many hunting rifles are as accurate as I read?

E

Eat more possum

New member
I have been a shooter for something over 35 years and have spent my share of time at the range and in the field. And I gotta tell ya, I have some serious doubts about a lot of the accuracy claims I read on this and other message boards.

Over and over again I read about how my rifles shoot one ragged hole and my rifle shoots sub MOA and so on. It's one thing for a rifle to shoot one exceptional group or even half its groups nice and tight and then the other half with just a bit of expansion or a flyer here and there. And its another thing altogether for a rifle and its shooter to keep all the rounds inside an inch day in and day out, much less shoot that "one ragged hole" CONSISTENTLY. Sub MOA is damn fine accuracy and hard to achieve consistenly with ANY rifle, much less most hunting rifles. Now I am not calling anybody an out and out prevaricator, but does anybody else have doubts about at least SOME of the accuracy claims that are so casually laid out these days?
 
Ah, c'mon, now, haven't you noticed how you forget pain, but remember pleasure? That's homo sapiens for ya, and if it were otherwise, we'd all be only children, with no brothers or sisters.

Same for shooting. You always remember the good, tight groups, and put the others out of your mind.

In my experience, there are some rifle/cartridge combinations which seem to be inherently accurate. I have had a half-dozen or so rifles which absolutely never shot worse than 3/4 minute of angle. I've had a few which I never could get to shoot better than 1-1/2 minute--but they shot better after I'd tweaked with them than when I first got them as 2-1/2- to 3-minute guns.

But hey! Are you the kind of guy who carries a tape measure when you go fishin'?

:D, Art
 
Well E-M-P, I don't know about the other fellows, but all my rifles shoot under an inch and I have the targets to prove it. Of course I only shoot hand loads that have been checked for case length, weighted charges and the over all cartridge length measured to .ooo". My Remington Classic 220 swift shoots under a half inch if I hold it right. It's best group is .13". My Ruger #1 6mm shoots 65gr V-Max under a half inch regularly. My 30-06 and 270 shoot under an inch regularly but they have shilen barrels. I have my own 100 and 300 yard range and shoot weekly. My shooting partner shot a 1.5 group last Monday at 300 yards with his custom 280 ack. imp. Yes, I know a lot of people that shoot tight groups and would not have a rifle that would not shoot under an inch. The tight groups are more due to how I feel on thatday than the rifle. Like every thing else, practice helps. The reason I put up a 300yd range was that 100 yd shooting was no longer a challenge. My 300 yd. groups are nothing to speak of yet.( four and five inch groups )

P.S. I bought some ink pad stamps from Sinclair International Catalog for 100 and 200 yd. targets. They work great. I can put nine 100yd. targets on one sheet of typing paper and four 200yd. targets. Have a great day:D

[Edited by Michael Priddy on 04-12-2001 at 01:04 PM]
 
I have a buddy who was past Illinois State champ in some sort of military rifle competition. He has an H&K G3 that will shoot sub-MOA at 600 yards. I've seen his targets.

I wish my G3 would do that. He says with a little work, it will.

My AR15M4 will shoot MOA at 300 yards, out of the box. Not exactly one ragged hole at that range, but good enough for me.
 
I'm using my custom AR15 as a varmint gun, with most any factory or handload when I goto the range it shoots subMOA. Many of my handloads are only considered "good" when they will consistently hold less than 1/2MOA for 5 shots, only recently have I began to shoot 10 shot groups.

Not too long back a batch of "squirrel loads" I had thrown together for a shoot that never panned out ended up getting shot up at the local range. This load that was quickly thrown together for the shoot used 40grn Vmaxes, a rather warm load of AA2015BR, and I didn't bother to sort cases so there was a mixture of four brands of brass making up these 80 loads.

At the range when I was shooting groups I decided to do 10 shot groups with these loads to see how well they perform. I did four 10 shot groups and 3 out of the four were in the 3/4MOA range with the fourth group being right at 1MOA. 6-7 of the shots would go through a 1/2MOA ragged hole and the remaining 3-4 shots were responsible for pushing the group size open to the 3/4MOA and 1MOA range. I don't bench rest this gun either, I might shoot it from a table position but I'm not firing one shot ever 5 minutes or cleaning between groups. Most of the rounds fired in those 10 shot groups were fired within a 1-2 minute time period, having a recoiless rifle will do that for you.

My darned AR is plenty accurate for making the squirrels feel some pain all the way out to 300-400 yards. Using the right bullet weight I wouldn't have any problems or concerns with thumping coyotes out to 500 yards if the shot presented itself, I'm not good enough yet though to hit a 500 yard squirrel.


Darned varmint shooters will always be the ones concerned with having a subMOA rifle so that they can extend their range as far as possible before a certain majority of the rounds will fall outside the vital area of their targets or be a complete miss altogether.
 
I tweak every one of my rifles so that they shoot (ammo/rifle set-up combination) to shoot well under 1" @ 100 yds - all will (although I've 1 or 2 that are starting to go a bit south due to bbl wear).

The rifles will BUT I sometimes don't (or can't). Times I just cannot get into the groove & swear a particular rifle's got something the matter with it. Hand it over to one o' my buds (who seems to be a machine at times = fairly disgusting ;) ) & the rifle's back = wasn't the gun.

When my rifles don't shoot right, it's usually me.
 
Will all production rifles put five shots into a 1" circle at 100 yards using factory ammo? Not likely. But almost any rifle can shoot under an inch if you spend enough money on it.

During a time when I toyed with the idea of becoming a benchrest shooter I hung out with a couple of the local gurus of small groups. It was a great learning experience.

I believe small groups are possible because I've done it with proper shooting technique and a rifle and ammo combination that is up to the task. The most important factor is shooting technique because even the most accurate combination won't make small groups if the man pulling the trigger doesn't know his business.

After deciding benchrest wasn't my sport, I concluded that unless one was a target or varmint shooter, MOA is a false god. For hunters practical accuracy is more important, meaning can you hit the target under field conditions. My favorite hunting rifle is not my most accurate but it is the rifle I can handle best in the field.
 
If it makes you feel better, my AK won't group tighter than 3.5 inches off of the bench with Russian ammo. Offhand at 100yds, I can't do much better than 6-8" with its iron sights. My Win94 30/30 refuses to do better than 3" at 100 off the bench, but I haven't really tweaked it yet with handloads. Does that verbal catharsis make you feel better? :)
 
If you want the truth, my Ruger 10/22 is pretty damn accurate, but then again, how bad can a .22 get???

My SKS however, that's a WHOLE 'nother story.. My SKS with scope, shoots about 3-4" groups at 100 yards. That's the best it can do. Russian Wolf stuff, cheap scope. But I think the fact that my barrel looks like at least 50K+ rounds has gone through it, might be a big factor. But then again, when it's all said and done, my SKS wasn't designed to be accurate, it was designed to digest everything, be utterly reliable, and shoot close enough...

My friend's tweaked M14, that thing is sub MOA...

Albert
 
Actually, I believe the stories about consistent sub-MOA accuracy, with a scope. But using open sights at 100 yds? It's like I've said before, I'll believe when I see it. I have excellent eyesight, somewhere in the upper 95% percentile, and I can barely even see a 1" target at 100 yds, much less hold POA consistently. Now, give me a fixed 5X, or better yet, a variable 10X scope, and I can shoot sub-MOA about 75% of the time with my Ruger No. 1B in .243.
 
Do most rifles shoot that good? I don't know. I've read where Joe Gunwriter takes the new Remchester .292 Tornado of and shoots one ragged hole at 500 yards. So I go out and but a .292 Tornado, and I'm lucky to get 2 inches at 100 yards. Same rifle, same loads,so where lies the truth? Did Joe Gunwriter actually shoot that raggedy little hole at 500 yard? Or was it maybe 10 feet? When I write the gun rag asking why thr radical difference, I get the old song and dance about how mr. Gunwriter has all these years of experience, and how I never could match his ability. That, BTW, is the answer I got from Gun & Ammo, when I questioned the writers groups.
Well, I've been shooting for 46 years, offhand, sitting, kneeling and off the bench, mostly the bench at that. (Never did like prone.)I have a few rifles that will do sub MOA when I'm having a good day, and the rifle decides it wants to cooperate.
Prime example. Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in 7X57 MM Mauser. The load isn't necessary. One day the bullet (139 gr. Hornady) is all over the place. 3 to 5 inch groups. Same load two days later, and the holes are hugging themselves. The worst bullet is a 150 gr. Win. PP. Never better than 4 to 5 inches. Yesterday, I got a genuine cloverleaf with all holes touching. FWIW. That bullet will not group in any 7X57 I own, (3) and my .280 rem. absolutely hate them. (And I have about half a coffee can full. (3 lb. size can.)
So will a rifle be sub MOA? Maybe yes, and maybe no.
Note for Poodleshooter. Try resting your Mod. 94 on the sandbags, with the front bag almost touching the triggerguard (lever). It will feel awkward as first, but I think it could cut your groups in half. Maybe even more.
I read something about this in, I believe RIFLE Magazine. I tried it and it cut my groups down by quite a bit. This also works with Ruger #1 single shots as well.
Paul B.
 
About the best I get with open sights is 1 1/2 inch at 100yds but most of my "open sights" have a small hole in the rear and a bead on the front. I have got 1/2 inch groups and under with my AR with a 6x24 power but I have to put a lot of effort into the ammo to do that. With GI rounds or M-198 bullets in my loads the same AR shoots 2 to 3 inch groups all day long. Stay out too late the night before with too much coffee in the morning I have a time getting under 3 or 4 inches with a scope on a match rifle.:) I should mention the .308 700 Remington I had that would shoot one hole all week long. It had a 26in no taper barrel and a Redfield 30x scope with a 8oz. bench trigger. That one you packed up on the bench with lots of sand bags and adjusted the elevation with a turnscrew in the pistol grip base. Of a rest as most shoot a rifle and using Bi-Mart ammo it only got 1 to 2 inch groups though.:)
 
Depends on which one of my rifles we're talking about. My Remington 700 PSS .300 Win Mag has put 6 shots in .6 inch dead center in the bullseye at a hundred yards. Of course the other four shots in that ten shot string were three and four inches from the bullseye. That was me not the rifle.
On the other, my .308 Mauser-I'm happy to get on the paper:)
 
OOPS!

Just went back and read "hunting" rifles. Guess I shouldn't have brought the PSS in on this. OK, the best group I have ever gotten with my Browing BAR Safari II w/BOSS .300 Win Mag is .4 inch center to center. If I continually shoot one inch groups with it after really working on my hold, my breathing and trigger pull, I start fiddling with the BOSS. When the rifle is dialed in right and I'm doing my job even halfway it'll do 3/4 inch groups repeatedly. This is from a bench. From a stand, I've made a 350 yd shot on a deer. Recently made a 75 yd. shot across an open field on a wild pig running maybe 15 feet inside the scrub oak tree line.

But anything can happen. I have a friend who bought a 336 Marlin .35 Remington from me. He regularly shoots 3/4 inch groups using 150 gr. Remington corelokt and a Bushnell scope. I never could shoot that good with the thing. One thing I wonder about though>that is the only rifle he shoots. And the only ammunition. I wonder how much total concentration on one rifle and one load has on accuracy obtained.
 
over the years I've bought many rifles that would NOT shoot MOA even after lotsa work but they went down the road. almost all of my present rifles will shoot sub moa groups with good optics and a few looking thru iron sights using my son's younger eyes......if you have the patience and time most guns will shoot great, you just have to find the best combo.
 
Accuracy doesn't mean much if you don't have the front sight on the target when you pull the trigger. So much for hunting.
Anybody think 1/2 MOA means anything on a hunting rifle used for large game? ( OK, prairie dogs at 500m is a different story)

[Edited by Nukem on 04-15-2001 at 11:04 PM]
 
nukem
yes 1/2 moa means a lot to me when hunting big game. the last 3 whitetails I've shot were all head shots at yardages over 125 yards the longest was 145-150. I won't take the shot unless the rifle will do it !!! where I hunt you cannot get any closer to the deer and I hate to serch for a wounded animal as I'm lazy and it is inhumane to wound an animal. head shots kill very quick...never had one go more than 4 feet after being shot in the head...
 
I guess variety's the spice of life. In my experience, I have had many, many rifles. Only some would do the "Magic Inch" or MOA. The trouble is, with a bolt gun, I get bored so fast. The very best I had was a Remington 700 Varmint in 223. It would put them into half an inch off the bench quite regularly. But once I worked up a load that would do that I got bored with the gun. My method of shooting is quite rapid -- no cooling between shots or cleaning. I would much rather shoot my Colt 223 that does an honest 3 MOA with iron sights than a laser with a 20 power scope and a bolt action. Also had a Steyr Mannlicher Mountain Carbine in 243 that would keep them below 1". Same thing: I got bored.

All my other bolt guns would do between 4" and 1".
 
Head shot?

You've got to be the only person I've ever talked to that will only take a headshot on large game, in fact the only person who trys for one.
If you've got a hunting grade rifle that shoots 1/2 moa, especially at 200 yrds, you've really got something there.
The normal kill zone on deer size animals is quite large and a shot through the lungs will kill them all.
I've watched 95% of the deer I've lungshot with a bow die from my stand.
 
Realistic Accuracy

To be honest I find it difficult to believe the claims of better than MOA accuracy that are regularly claimed on this and other boards. However, two of my three centerfire rifles shoot MOA (the third is new and unshot) with factory ammo without any tweaking from the factory. Mine are simply sporter type rifles in uninteresting calibers. Many of those claiming great accuracy are shooting target type or sniper type rifles that should be more accurate--and they are shooting off the bench.

The comment about technique of the shooter is very important to accuracy. How you shoot makes a phenomenal difference.

Bench shooting for me is rather meaningless. It is also boring. It is fine to know what a rifle is capable of shooting but I am more interested in what I can hit at unknown ranges from a variety of positions.

Years ago Jack O'Connor thought one couldn't ask for more than MOA and thought a very accurate rifle was 3 MOA. From my limited experience MOA is common on unaltered factory rifles, something I don't believe was expected or common 20 or 30 years ago. This is quite a difference in a couple decades.

I am extremely happy with MOA; to be honest, I don't think I am capable to shooting any better than MOA consistently and certainly cannot do it in practical shooting positions although I can get pretty close prone, slung up.
 
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