I keep hearing that libertarians are mostly middle-class white males who have no concept of poverty (i.e. being born to a welfare or single-parent family) and thus have no compassion for those less fortunate. How many self-identified libertarians you know (or you are) have had experience with poverty and helped themselves in spite of inauspicious beginnings.
How many here were born to VERY poor families?
- Thread starter Oleg Volk
- Start date
- Status
I sure grew up poor!!! Money wise anyway...
After my Mother's 3rd husband left us, we lived an entire year on LESS money than I now make in 2 days. Not a dime was public assistance. We were poor.
My politics are just to the right of Attila the Hun.
Joe
------------------
Go NRA
After my Mother's 3rd husband left us, we lived an entire year on LESS money than I now make in 2 days. Not a dime was public assistance. We were poor.
My politics are just to the right of Attila the Hun.
Joe
------------------
Go NRA
Not what you'd call VERY poor, but we didn't buy new cars, or even good used cars. Going out for pizza was extremely rare. I wore most of my brother's wardrobe and didn't even have a new bike until I was 14 and bought my own. We had the same furniture for 15 years and the same TV for the same period (13 incher, knobs long gone, sounded like crap-ola). We always ate pretty well, though most of the steak we ate was game. As I got older my dad moved up in the world and we did better, but I can remember what a big deal it was for the whole family to go see Star Wars. The 5 of us spent $20 that night, including popcorn!
Is that poor enough for you? The saying in my family is "I'd like to join the John Birch Society, but they lean a little left for my taste."
Is that poor enough for you? The saying in my family is "I'd like to join the John Birch Society, but they lean a little left for my taste."
Beware, my fellow former citizen of a communist country, that you not fall into the trap set by the communists.
Their whole argument is based on fallacy.
Wish I had a good link available; but one of the fallacy types is disqualifying a person's arguments automatically because of who he is.
A true libertarian would know this
I see what that (ahem) argument comes from.
The real problem is that many who oppose socialism still dignify it as in the same league as capitalism.
Socialism is stealing. Perhaps SOME who have nothing wish to steal; but have their conscience clean as the "collective" will do the stealing. Yes, the poor are a better harvest for communists.
The right to own $2 comes from the right to own $1.
No offense to you guys, Oleg, you're one of the foremost contributors to these topics and your insight into communism guides us all. But once you dignify this, you lose.
Battler.
Their whole argument is based on fallacy.
Wish I had a good link available; but one of the fallacy types is disqualifying a person's arguments automatically because of who he is.
A true libertarian would know this
I see what that (ahem) argument comes from.
The real problem is that many who oppose socialism still dignify it as in the same league as capitalism.
Socialism is stealing. Perhaps SOME who have nothing wish to steal; but have their conscience clean as the "collective" will do the stealing. Yes, the poor are a better harvest for communists.
The right to own $2 comes from the right to own $1.
No offense to you guys, Oleg, you're one of the foremost contributors to these topics and your insight into communism guides us all. But once you dignify this, you lose.
Battler.
I can't say we were really poor. Always had lots to eat (we had a garden and stocked up on fresh game and fish during season). I always had a new pair of shoes to wear to school (my mother, older brother and I worked in the fields and orchards to buy them). My clothes were not to bad, afterall my older brother broke them in for me and my mother made sure that the holes were patched up properly (I was in fashion years before my time).
I started working when I was 10 doing odd jobs around. By the time I was 12 I was working full time during the summer months hauling hay and feeding cow critters in the winter months. By the time I was 13 my folks required me to pay $100 per month for room and board. That summer I made $4,400 hauling hay. Heck it was only fair considering my Dad made less than $8,000 for the year working full time.
I put myself through college. Folks could not afford it. I spent two years of grubbin to get through. At one time, all I had to eat for a month was a bunch of lipton instant chicken noodle soup. Until the college butcher shop gave me a half of a horse. No one else was willing to eat it. But (forgive me) I was so hungry by then I could eat a horse.
I was the only one in my family to go to college. My older brother owns his own guide service in Alaska. He now runs 3 30-36 ft. boats. My younger sister works for the feds and is charge of their hazardous waste. Younger brother drives truck between Reno, NV and Florida.
Maybe we never had a lot of money to do things when I was little. But my parents spent a lot of time with us, hunting, fishing and working around the place. I consider myself very fortunate to have grown up in the country, where we could grow a garden, hunt and fish for our supper.
------------------
Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
I started working when I was 10 doing odd jobs around. By the time I was 12 I was working full time during the summer months hauling hay and feeding cow critters in the winter months. By the time I was 13 my folks required me to pay $100 per month for room and board. That summer I made $4,400 hauling hay. Heck it was only fair considering my Dad made less than $8,000 for the year working full time.
I put myself through college. Folks could not afford it. I spent two years of grubbin to get through. At one time, all I had to eat for a month was a bunch of lipton instant chicken noodle soup. Until the college butcher shop gave me a half of a horse. No one else was willing to eat it. But (forgive me) I was so hungry by then I could eat a horse.
I was the only one in my family to go to college. My older brother owns his own guide service in Alaska. He now runs 3 30-36 ft. boats. My younger sister works for the feds and is charge of their hazardous waste. Younger brother drives truck between Reno, NV and Florida.
Maybe we never had a lot of money to do things when I was little. But my parents spent a lot of time with us, hunting, fishing and working around the place. I consider myself very fortunate to have grown up in the country, where we could grow a garden, hunt and fish for our supper.
------------------
Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
1911maniac
Inactive
AAHH! so thats been my problem all these years huh.Seriously though when it comes to those less fortunate .The reason they are poor is because of choices they made in their life.They choose not to go to college, go to technical school or even trade school.Instead they chose to take the lazy way out . You cannot be successfull on a 40 hr week.It takes dedication a will to learn and lots of hard work, instead of lying around and drinking and blaming society at large.Everyone who is of sound mind and body has the same decision to make ,it is in your hand alone not any one else`s! You can only blame failure on yourself.Thats what is wrong with this country ,somewhere along the way we forgot to take responsibility for our own actions.
The answer to your question is yes im a libertarian and yes i came from a upper middle class family , and i`m a ticked off white male!This never ending socialism crap is being taught in the schools in the churches and from the government. The black leaders spout this as it is the truth.The simple fact remains the reason they keep pushing this is political power and greed,they know for a fact that if they keep the poor downtrodden then they will stay in office!Then they holler we must pay our fair share ,so these maggots on welfare can stay there!
I have put in 80 hour + workweeks for months on end,not because i wanted to or having a need to , but Because I enjoyed what I was doing at the time and was learning something that would benefit me for the rest of my life!
I`m through ranting i reckon
maniac
The answer to your question is yes im a libertarian and yes i came from a upper middle class family , and i`m a ticked off white male!This never ending socialism crap is being taught in the schools in the churches and from the government. The black leaders spout this as it is the truth.The simple fact remains the reason they keep pushing this is political power and greed,they know for a fact that if they keep the poor downtrodden then they will stay in office!Then they holler we must pay our fair share ,so these maggots on welfare can stay there!
I have put in 80 hour + workweeks for months on end,not because i wanted to or having a need to , but Because I enjoyed what I was doing at the time and was learning something that would benefit me for the rest of my life!
I`m through ranting i reckon
maniac
It all boils down to work ethic. If you are willing to work at whatever your chosen profession is, you will make money. Depending on your skills you may make alot or little, but hard workers are valued by most employers and are getting harder to find. I'm tired of lazy people who don't want to work or work at far below their potential. I just moved to a new area where good paying jobs are hard to come by. I took a low paying job and worked my ass off. Then when a higher paying job became available I got it. I'm still not making the money I was where I used to live, but now live in a beautiful place. It's worth the trade off. The bleeding heart's have made it easy for lazy people, it's time to change that.
------------------
NRA MEMBER? GREAT, NOW JOIN GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA
------------------
NRA MEMBER? GREAT, NOW JOIN GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA
Bruce in West Oz
New member
Poor? Yes. When I was born in 1950, Dad was still in his printing apprenticeship. Take-home pay was 21/- a week ($2.10), and the room they rented was 17/6 ($1.75) a week.
They bought a 2-bedroom timber home when Dad qualified as a printer, on a war service loan.
I honestly never noticed being poor as a kid -- we were warm, dry and well-fed. It's only now, looking back and remembering details, that I realise what a struggle it must have been for Mum and Dad.
My politics? Conservative ---> right wing.
B
They bought a 2-bedroom timber home when Dad qualified as a printer, on a war service loan.
I honestly never noticed being poor as a kid -- we were warm, dry and well-fed. It's only now, looking back and remembering details, that I realise what a struggle it must have been for Mum and Dad.
My politics? Conservative ---> right wing.
B
Not me personally, but my father was born poorer than dirt. He was born and raised in a small mining town in the upper penninsula of Michigan during the Great Depression.
His father had been a banker before the crash and lost everything. The iron and copper mines had played out a couple of years before, so the Crash only added more misery on top of beng a dying town anyway.
Dad's family was so poor that in the winter, just to have food to eat, they raised chickens in the attic of the house. This ensured them of fresh eggs and a supply of meat. Can you imagine the smell? There was no running water in the house. Water was carried in from a spring a few hundred yards away.
As a pre-teen, dad would go to buildings being torn down or that had burned down to salvage the nails, straightening the bent ones on the railroad tracks. Sometime duriong this time he was taken from the family to a camp being run for malnourished children several hundred miles from home. He ended up staying on for a couple of months as his first real job. This was before he was ten years old!
About this time, WW2 broke out and most of the able bodied men went off to war. He then started doing odd jobs around town, always learning some new skill or vocation. He even spent time as a helper in the town's diesel-powered electric plant, maintaining the diesels.
After high school, he joined the Navy in honor of a favorite uncle that had great stories to tell of seeing the world. Then came the Korean War and he was forced to stay in uniform on a mandated extension of his tour of duty.
After all of this, he used his GI Bill to help put himself through college, earning his Mechanical Engineering degree while working a full-time job through most of his college days. By the way, he graduated Summa Cum Laude, and was in most of the engineering honors fraternities.
I'm proud of my old man, but he is a son-of-a-pup to get along with.
[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited April 26, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited April 26, 2000).]
His father had been a banker before the crash and lost everything. The iron and copper mines had played out a couple of years before, so the Crash only added more misery on top of beng a dying town anyway.
Dad's family was so poor that in the winter, just to have food to eat, they raised chickens in the attic of the house. This ensured them of fresh eggs and a supply of meat. Can you imagine the smell? There was no running water in the house. Water was carried in from a spring a few hundred yards away.
As a pre-teen, dad would go to buildings being torn down or that had burned down to salvage the nails, straightening the bent ones on the railroad tracks. Sometime duriong this time he was taken from the family to a camp being run for malnourished children several hundred miles from home. He ended up staying on for a couple of months as his first real job. This was before he was ten years old!
About this time, WW2 broke out and most of the able bodied men went off to war. He then started doing odd jobs around town, always learning some new skill or vocation. He even spent time as a helper in the town's diesel-powered electric plant, maintaining the diesels.
After high school, he joined the Navy in honor of a favorite uncle that had great stories to tell of seeing the world. Then came the Korean War and he was forced to stay in uniform on a mandated extension of his tour of duty.
After all of this, he used his GI Bill to help put himself through college, earning his Mechanical Engineering degree while working a full-time job through most of his college days. By the way, he graduated Summa Cum Laude, and was in most of the engineering honors fraternities.
I'm proud of my old man, but he is a son-of-a-pup to get along with.
[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited April 26, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited April 26, 2000).]
Not an White Male, and not quite libertian, but I have no concept of poverty. I have seen extreme poverty when I went to Mexico on a summer project with my church, but have never had to deal with it. I can say i don't have "no compassion" for the poor. But I certainly have less compassion then the Bible tells us to have.
------------------
It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
http://yellowman.virtualave.net/
------------------
It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
http://yellowman.virtualave.net/
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Battler:
Socialism is stealing. Perhaps SOME who have nothing wish to steal; but have their conscience clean as the "collective" will do the stealing. Yes, the poor are a better harvest for communists.
[/quote]
I am only trying to give other people's theories a benefit of the doubt, to see if they can be tested for internal inconsistencies before being tested for being wrong on the philosophic level.
Socialism is stealing. Perhaps SOME who have nothing wish to steal; but have their conscience clean as the "collective" will do the stealing. Yes, the poor are a better harvest for communists.
[/quote]
I am only trying to give other people's theories a benefit of the doubt, to see if they can be tested for internal inconsistencies before being tested for being wrong on the philosophic level.
OkieGentleman
New member
Peanut butter in big cans. Butter in cans. Powdered milk that was awful tasting. Pinto beans. Cheese in blocks.
A wooden ice chest that you put the ice on the top shelf and let the cold water run down to keep the milk cold. Damn thing would probably be worth more that a new one on todays antique market.
Family holidays with 20 to 25 adults and 40 or 50 kids.
When you got old enough you got to sit and eat with the MEN instead of the children. A rite of passage, after you ate with the men you were treated like one and expected to act like one.
When you were a kid 20 adults to watch out for you, but only one could spank you. New jeans at the start of the school year and after you turned 14 you bought you own. No money for frills but lots to do that did not require money. Fishing for catfish and taking some corn from the field rolling it in clay mud and baking the corn while you fished. So many uncles to look up to the I was once accused of lying because no body could get into that much trouble! Come to think of it I think I was one of the richest kids alive back then and did not know it until just now.
A wooden ice chest that you put the ice on the top shelf and let the cold water run down to keep the milk cold. Damn thing would probably be worth more that a new one on todays antique market.
Family holidays with 20 to 25 adults and 40 or 50 kids.
When you got old enough you got to sit and eat with the MEN instead of the children. A rite of passage, after you ate with the men you were treated like one and expected to act like one.
When you were a kid 20 adults to watch out for you, but only one could spank you. New jeans at the start of the school year and after you turned 14 you bought you own. No money for frills but lots to do that did not require money. Fishing for catfish and taking some corn from the field rolling it in clay mud and baking the corn while you fished. So many uncles to look up to the I was once accused of lying because no body could get into that much trouble! Come to think of it I think I was one of the richest kids alive back then and did not know it until just now.
I admit it - I'm a white male of middle class upbringing. Totally politically incorrect. Dad was an Army officer, so I'm the son of politically incorrect from a modern Social Democratic Liberal's viewpoint.
That said, I paid a lot of my own way through college working a co-op job (1 quarter in school, one at work), studied my ass off, and graduated from a top name engineering school with honors. Went to work, got my Professional Engineer's registration, and became part owner of an engineering consulting firm. This gave me the honor of putting my house on the line with the bank to secure our line of credit. It also enabled me to defer paychecks every now and then so we could always make payroll for our employees. I've since left that business to make a very successful transition to the IT world, which I accomplished by using the management and customer service skills I had gained in the engineering consulting business and self-studying to gain technical expertise in IT.
In short, I'm just a rich white male who "won life's lottery" and should pay back society by handling my paycheck over to the government so they can squander most of it on bureaucratic administrators and the remainder on welfare queens who were just "unlucky" that they spent all their time partying and having babies they couldn't afford and never educated themselves[/sarcasm].
There, I feel better now. I think.
[This message has been edited by JimR (edited April 26, 2000).]
That said, I paid a lot of my own way through college working a co-op job (1 quarter in school, one at work), studied my ass off, and graduated from a top name engineering school with honors. Went to work, got my Professional Engineer's registration, and became part owner of an engineering consulting firm. This gave me the honor of putting my house on the line with the bank to secure our line of credit. It also enabled me to defer paychecks every now and then so we could always make payroll for our employees. I've since left that business to make a very successful transition to the IT world, which I accomplished by using the management and customer service skills I had gained in the engineering consulting business and self-studying to gain technical expertise in IT.
In short, I'm just a rich white male who "won life's lottery" and should pay back society by handling my paycheck over to the government so they can squander most of it on bureaucratic administrators and the remainder on welfare queens who were just "unlucky" that they spent all their time partying and having babies they couldn't afford and never educated themselves[/sarcasm].
There, I feel better now. I think.
[This message has been edited by JimR (edited April 26, 2000).]
We flirted with poverty while dad tried to get his gunshop off the ground, but never really hit it. I always had serviceable clothes and we always ate, though we did eat a lot more venison and fish for those few years.
We were damn lucky--my parents had spent the year before their wedding building their own house with my grandparents' help, so we owned that and one fairly crappy car outright with no debt when Pillsbury closed the plant where dad had worked. A LOT of people who had tried to live higher ended up homeless or living with relatives when they couldn't pay mortgages.
I was only poor by the standards of some of the spoiled brats I live with now....I think they think I'm poor now, though I have my own car, TV, stereo, computer, college education, etc.
(This is one reason I never really agreed that teachers are so terribly underpaid--when I was growing up, it seemed like teachers lived pretty well.)
We were damn lucky--my parents had spent the year before their wedding building their own house with my grandparents' help, so we owned that and one fairly crappy car outright with no debt when Pillsbury closed the plant where dad had worked. A LOT of people who had tried to live higher ended up homeless or living with relatives when they couldn't pay mortgages.
I was only poor by the standards of some of the spoiled brats I live with now....I think they think I'm poor now, though I have my own car, TV, stereo, computer, college education, etc.
(This is one reason I never really agreed that teachers are so terribly underpaid--when I was growing up, it seemed like teachers lived pretty well.)
I grew up in the rural south, reared by a widowed grandmother living on a small VA pension and widow's SS. One set of shoes a year, and all that other good stuff you read about.
If the gov. had had a poverty index in those years we'd of probably made the cut. Still, I never had the sense of "being poor". Sure there wasn't a lot of money - but then not too, too many folks we knew had much more.
There was very little "welfare" in rural areas then. While the programs existed, the payments were so pitifully low that farm labor paid more ($1.50 for a 9 hour day) and if there was an elderly relative (or older child) to watch the kids even the women would work in season.
Welfare was still considered "chairty" and women who lived off of their children's payments without trying to work were considered trash. The old "Man in the house" welfare rule was still in effect - and if a man lived in the home - whether married or not, whether the kids were his or not - he was expected to support the family.
Times changed, welfare became an entitlement, men no longer were expected to support children in the household who weren't theirs, payments went up some and the 2nd generation to be raised on welfare began to show up.
There used to be a phrase "Culture of Poverty" which had a brief vogue in the late 50s or early 60s. (I think it died because of a lack of policical correctness - though that phrase was many years in the future.) In one sense it implied that there was a certain culture associated with some poverty groups that was not necessarily tightly associated with the lack of money. The theory based on that premis was that unless you could effect some cultural change, throwing money at the problems was a waste.
There was a study I recall from those years (early 60s?)done, I believe, in Alabama. Anyway, some folks sat down and assigned a cash value to every type of public assistance - commodities, housing subsidies, medical coverage, free school lunches, and so on. When the cash equivalent was added to the actual cash payments for AFDC families the welfare folks actually had a slightly higher effective income than their caseworkers. Yet obviously the life style was quite different (at least for many).
Along about then the "War on Poverty" came roaring in and the concept that you might do something about trashy people through changing their trashy ways died under the concept that the cure for poverty was money.
Like a lot of others I have seen folks pay for lobster and twinkies with food stamps. I have also known a lot of folks who fell on hard times and made good use of various public assistance programs. In spite of the proven fraud and abuse of welfare programs, I think the majority of folks who use them are "short timers" who fall on hard times and soon move on. I would note that the biggest abusers (dollar wise) of government funded programs seem to come from the medical community. Maybe some truth to the saying that "Trashy folks got trashy ways".
I'm fairly libertarian in my political philosophy. On the other hand I believe in a lot of the public assistantance programs (I believe that we should extend a helping hand, personally and through our social systems, of which government is one) - it's just that I'd run them a lot differently.
Relative to social/economic problems - I think the main difference between a true libertarian and either of the other two dominate parties, is that the libertarian believes that some folks should be allowed to suffer because they've earned it. Democrats on the other hand don't believe the poor should suffer because poverty isn't their fault and they vote democrat. Republicans don't believe the rich should suffer consequences because they then wouldn't be able to contribute, and they vote republican.
I really don't see the technical difference between a government program to bail out a waitress with 3 small children who's man has just made her a grass widow and a government program to bail out a savings and loan business who's corporate greed resulted in bad investments. On the other hand, I see a strong philosophical difference.
Maybe I'm just jaded.
------------------
Jim Fox
If the gov. had had a poverty index in those years we'd of probably made the cut. Still, I never had the sense of "being poor". Sure there wasn't a lot of money - but then not too, too many folks we knew had much more.
There was very little "welfare" in rural areas then. While the programs existed, the payments were so pitifully low that farm labor paid more ($1.50 for a 9 hour day) and if there was an elderly relative (or older child) to watch the kids even the women would work in season.
Welfare was still considered "chairty" and women who lived off of their children's payments without trying to work were considered trash. The old "Man in the house" welfare rule was still in effect - and if a man lived in the home - whether married or not, whether the kids were his or not - he was expected to support the family.
Times changed, welfare became an entitlement, men no longer were expected to support children in the household who weren't theirs, payments went up some and the 2nd generation to be raised on welfare began to show up.
There used to be a phrase "Culture of Poverty" which had a brief vogue in the late 50s or early 60s. (I think it died because of a lack of policical correctness - though that phrase was many years in the future.) In one sense it implied that there was a certain culture associated with some poverty groups that was not necessarily tightly associated with the lack of money. The theory based on that premis was that unless you could effect some cultural change, throwing money at the problems was a waste.
There was a study I recall from those years (early 60s?)done, I believe, in Alabama. Anyway, some folks sat down and assigned a cash value to every type of public assistance - commodities, housing subsidies, medical coverage, free school lunches, and so on. When the cash equivalent was added to the actual cash payments for AFDC families the welfare folks actually had a slightly higher effective income than their caseworkers. Yet obviously the life style was quite different (at least for many).
Along about then the "War on Poverty" came roaring in and the concept that you might do something about trashy people through changing their trashy ways died under the concept that the cure for poverty was money.
Like a lot of others I have seen folks pay for lobster and twinkies with food stamps. I have also known a lot of folks who fell on hard times and made good use of various public assistance programs. In spite of the proven fraud and abuse of welfare programs, I think the majority of folks who use them are "short timers" who fall on hard times and soon move on. I would note that the biggest abusers (dollar wise) of government funded programs seem to come from the medical community. Maybe some truth to the saying that "Trashy folks got trashy ways".
I'm fairly libertarian in my political philosophy. On the other hand I believe in a lot of the public assistantance programs (I believe that we should extend a helping hand, personally and through our social systems, of which government is one) - it's just that I'd run them a lot differently.
Relative to social/economic problems - I think the main difference between a true libertarian and either of the other two dominate parties, is that the libertarian believes that some folks should be allowed to suffer because they've earned it. Democrats on the other hand don't believe the poor should suffer because poverty isn't their fault and they vote democrat. Republicans don't believe the rich should suffer consequences because they then wouldn't be able to contribute, and they vote republican.
I really don't see the technical difference between a government program to bail out a waitress with 3 small children who's man has just made her a grass widow and a government program to bail out a savings and loan business who's corporate greed resulted in bad investments. On the other hand, I see a strong philosophical difference.
Maybe I'm just jaded.
------------------
Jim Fox
Mike Irwin
Staff
We weren't dirt poor, but I'm still not certain how my parents got by at times...
My dad struck out on his own (he's a civil engineer), and it did NOT go well. My mother helped make ends meet by running her part time antiques business.
We always had food on the table (sometimes it was what I shot), and somehow my parents managed to keep everything together even though Dad's business finally failed.
I still went to a relatively exclusive, and expensive, college.
Mom and Dad are now doing fairly well (not great) financially, and I'm working my own finances so that I can and if necessary, when the time comes, take care of them.
My dad struck out on his own (he's a civil engineer), and it did NOT go well. My mother helped make ends meet by running her part time antiques business.
We always had food on the table (sometimes it was what I shot), and somehow my parents managed to keep everything together even though Dad's business finally failed.
I still went to a relatively exclusive, and expensive, college.
Mom and Dad are now doing fairly well (not great) financially, and I'm working my own finances so that I can and if necessary, when the time comes, take care of them.
Maybe the effectual response to Oleg's query is that so many of us equate our personal connection with "poverty" with the experience of one of our parents.
Yes my father was very poor, but my life with him and his selfless kindess to others, even strangers, has kept me quite wealthy in the things I was taught to truly value.
The crux is that so many of us who were spared true poverty in a relatively free country have managed to grow up looking to the efforts of our own and not to the STATE for our present or future. We including my siblings, don't agree with mandated theft and redistribution.
We actually have learned to exist almost exclusively independent of the STATE. That parasite is awful hard to shake loose.
Yes my father was very poor, but my life with him and his selfless kindess to others, even strangers, has kept me quite wealthy in the things I was taught to truly value.
The crux is that so many of us who were spared true poverty in a relatively free country have managed to grow up looking to the efforts of our own and not to the STATE for our present or future. We including my siblings, don't agree with mandated theft and redistribution.
We actually have learned to exist almost exclusively independent of the STATE. That parasite is awful hard to shake loose.
Munro Williams
New member
I'm struck by references to the Depression: The old man (God rest his bones) used to tell me, "We were hungry and poor, dirt floor, no running water, no electricity, and I was the youngest of nine. Poppa lost his leg at the sawmill. Then the Depression came."
Much later on when I grew older I realized that no matter how much money any of us had, the Depression had woven its way into everyone's deepest fears, so no matter how well off any of us were, there would never "be enough money," and there would never be any financial peace of mind.
This, I think, explains a lot of middle class liberal belief in the secular religion of liberalism/socialism. The root of such thinking is thought disorder.
Right now I live in Japan. There's a lot of delusional thinking, even more than back home, but folks over here have money for the first time in their nation's history. It doesn't mean much though, because of the command and control nature of the economy. People are happy to be fed, clothed, and sheltered. A lot of things we'd complain about, they see as no problem.
A sound-bite economic analysis of things over here is "You've got to work three times as long to spend twice as much for things that are only half as good as they'd be anywhere else."
Hope that wasn't too weird a tangent.
[This message has been edited by Munro Williams (edited April 27, 2000).]
Much later on when I grew older I realized that no matter how much money any of us had, the Depression had woven its way into everyone's deepest fears, so no matter how well off any of us were, there would never "be enough money," and there would never be any financial peace of mind.
This, I think, explains a lot of middle class liberal belief in the secular religion of liberalism/socialism. The root of such thinking is thought disorder.
Right now I live in Japan. There's a lot of delusional thinking, even more than back home, but folks over here have money for the first time in their nation's history. It doesn't mean much though, because of the command and control nature of the economy. People are happy to be fed, clothed, and sheltered. A lot of things we'd complain about, they see as no problem.
A sound-bite economic analysis of things over here is "You've got to work three times as long to spend twice as much for things that are only half as good as they'd be anywhere else."
Hope that wasn't too weird a tangent.
[This message has been edited by Munro Williams (edited April 27, 2000).]
- Status