How Long Will Polymer Last......an update :D

C

cslinger

New member
Update is a little tongue in cheek.

I was recently browsing for something or other and came across all the threads from some years back where the question of polymer longevity came up. Not durability mind you, longevity of the material structure. We all know by now that just about any half ass made polymer frame can handle like a jillion rounds with basic parts changes generally speaking.

At any rate since I saw these threads I started thinking to myself I have been in this game for a while, I have never really paid much attention to it as I have steel and walnut too, but I have my fair share of tactical Tupperware as well. I figured I see what I had as far as age goes.

The four oldest pieces of gun plastic I have are as follows.

A Sauer 1913 pistol that dates back to at least WWII as that is where my great uncle got it. The gun is missing some parts and doesn't work and the overall finish is fairly rough but the plastic grip panels (whatever they are made out of) Look damn near factory new.

A Manurhin Walther PP that is probably a 60s era gun. Now this gun hasn't seen much use and its gorgeous and again the plastic grip panels and magazine extension (brown in color) look factory new.

A couple of Bushmaster rifles from the early 2000s. All the hand guards etc. again factory new.

Now my oldest polymer firearm, an early Walther P99 that is is not that old but since I got curious I checked and it is going on 15 years. It is the "Titanium" slide (two tone) model. The slide is all scratched to hell, the barrel hood has some finish missing. Nothing horrible but she's seem some use. The polymer frame............factory new. Polymer sights........factory new.

I also have Glocks and what not but they are all newer.

I guess I have both never paid polymer degradation much mind....yet always assumed they would have a fairly short life span. (100 years or less)

At any rate I figured I would share my findings. After looking at the condition of the, I am sure fairly low tech, "plastic" (Bakelite?????) on the 1913 grips I am now wondering if these things won't last a hell of a long time if kept out of the sun or extreme elements. (basically cared for, like you would any gun)

Anyway just thought I would share, since after going down the rabbit hole of those old posts and totally forgetting what I was looking for in the first place......I figured I would take everybody along for the ride.
 
My first handguns were "plastic" but they would only shoot water about 5 or 6 feet. Today my LCP and LC9 are "plastic", will shoot much further, and I expect them to last at least as long as my grandchildren's grandchildren.
 
I have a Glock 17 that was made in the early '90's which still looks fairly new, though it has been used quite a bit.

The oldest piece of gun-plastic I own are the grips on a Swiss M1882 manufactured in 1894, which happen to be in perfect condition.

The worst pieces of gun-plastic I have ever seen are the early AR15 pistol grips and buttstocks. I would bet that many of the original furniture made before 1980 didn't hold up so well if actually used quite a bit. I remember seeing old early '70's AR's at gun shows in the early '90's and many looked like crap then!
 
One of the problems I have with plastics is that you cannot anticipate what conditions they will be subjected to over time. I have no doubt that plastics kept in ideal conditions will last a long time.

I also note that those who have posted here are doing so as anecdotal evidence, not scientific.

I will add a little anecdotal evidence of my own. Noting that nylon has long been considered one of the toughest/springiness of the plastics, at one time I found that the nylon gear on the end of my distributor shaft had shattered. I attributed (rightly or wrongly), it to the chemicals resident in motor oil.

I also noticed that trash bags remained soft and intact until long exposeure to light.

Therefore, I suspect (but cannot prove), that some plastic gun parts will not have the longevity of their counterpart steel ones when subjected to long periods of sunlight and/or chemicals (cleaning fluids, acetone, brake cleaner, etc.) What I do have faith in however, are that steel gun parts will not be affected by sunlight or chemicals. Thus, inasmuch as I am not a policeman who is issued a plastic gun, I do not own any plastic guns lest I be proved right.
 
Bakelite is a pretty durable resin, but it is not pliable and is brittle so was used only for non-critical parts. There were a variety of formulations and not all fared as well over time. The polymer frames are typically formulations of Nylon (6, 66, and there are many others). The HK VP90 came out in the mid 1970s, but little is written about them. There are a few Glock frames that I have seen that have failed due to material failure that are both old and with high round counts. Problem is creep curves stop at 10 years...and creep rupture, even if the material degrades, is likely the primary fracture mode. It is total time under load, not cycles, that determines the failure morphology.
 
Remington made the Nylon 66 22 semi-auto rifle from 1959-1989. They even had a "plastic" receiver. They still work fine and the $45 guns now sell at around $500 in excellent condition. I bought a Mossberg Blaze 47 with a polymer receiver because they did so well. I visited a friend last week and his Nylon 66 he bought in the early 60s still looks like new.
 
"One of the problems I have with plastics is that you cannot anticipate what conditions they will be subjected to over time. I have no doubt that plastics kept in ideal conditions will last a long time."

Isn't that true of anything? If you subject steel to poor conditions, it will rust to worthlessness.
 
ZeroTX said:
If you subject steel to poor conditions, it will rust to worthless
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And aluminum alloy tends to crack, it can oxidize horrendously under certain conditions, and it may suffer galling or peening where it contacts a relatively hard steel part.

None of the common frame or receiver materials are perfect. All of them have drawbacks. Polymer just gets a bad rap because most polymer guns are relatively recent.
 
Polymer just gets a bad rap
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I don't think poly-guns get a bad rap, other than perhaps pertaining to the look and feel of plastic which some folks object to. There are too many people who buy plastic frame guns today to justify this.
 
Hopefully Glock doesn't use the same kind of plastic that Jeep used in my 10-year old Wrangler:

1. All wire covers have disintegrated;
2. Have replaced spark-plug wires twice because of cracks caused by plastic deterioration;
3. Plastic bumbers and wheel fenders have faded and degraded;
4. Plastic interior scratches very easily;

Almost every plastic part on my Wrangler shows signs of extreme wear and degradation. In fact, it is because of palstic used in cars, even my '07 Wrangler, that causes me to HATE PLASTIC!
 
I have wondered the same about plastic guns. I have watched torture test on you tube and they seem to hold up well. For the most part my plastic goes from the safe to the holster, to the range or the desert or any other place I happen to be. I am sure they will out last me.
 
Skans, there are over 10,000 plastics, or polymers. They have different uses and properties. We don't make pistols out of tin, but no one screams that they HATE METAL either.

I do a lot of work with polymers, from both design and failure analysis perspectives, and I have taken several post graduate level courses on plastic part design including one specifically for automotive design engineers. Their focus is very different than designers wanting an engineered polymer with strength and durability. The polymers used in the automotive industry are largely polypropylenes. Those are not engineered polymers and have very different properties. The span of properties of polymers is much larger than that of metals.
 
A Sauer 1913 pistol would likely have Bakelite(polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride) grips. Early form of non-oil based plastic.
Like MarkCO says, there are a lot of plastics. Plastic stuff used in vehicles are subject to being washed in oils, etc. It's not the plastic that is at fault. Plastics and oils, etc don't get along.
"...They even had a "plastic" receiver..." No they didn't.
"...aluminum alloy tends to crack..." Like engine blocks?
Oh and:
Plastic Water Bottle - 450 years
Disposable Diapers - 500 years
Plastic 6-Pack Collar - 450 Years
Extruded Polystyrene Foam - over 5,000 years
 
Plastics have been used since at least WW-2 and many of the products made 75-80 years ago are still functional. The plastics today are even better.

Plastic will degrade in bright sunlight. Steel and wood degrade in moisture. Pick your poison.
 
Skans, there are over 10,000 plastics, or polymers. They have different uses and properties. We don't make pistols out of tin, but no one screams that they HATE METAL either.
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Markco, You make a very valid point. I really shouldn't say I hate plastic - just the crappy plastic used in my car. My Glock 17 which is over 25 years old and fairly well used is perfectly sound.

Plastic will degrade in bright sunlight.
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I haven't seen any proof of that with Glocks, in fact torture tests have proved otherwise. Also, even heat doesn't seem to degrade Glock frames - look at all of the stippling folks do to their Glocks using a soldering iron - I haven't seen any failures directly related to the application of heat hot enough to melt the surface of the frame.

Having said that, I do believe a good quality all stainless pistol, like the S&W 659, CZ 75B or Dan Wesson 1911 will out-survive Glock's plastic frames. This is pure speculation and I'm talking about hundreds of years, not mere decades or generations.

I know that Glocks are supposedly made out of Nylon, but IIRC, it is some proprietary blend. Sounds a bit voodoo-hokey, but Glocks have been around now for over 30 years and subjected to lots of abuse, solvents, oils, etc. Perhaps there's something to it. To date, I have never seen or heard of a Glock that had it's plastic frame deteriorate for one reason or another - Kabooms don't really count either.
 
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"...They even had a "plastic" receiver..." No they didn't.
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The Nylon 66 did indeed have a nylon receiver. The metal "receiver" in pics is just a thin sheet-metal cover that wraps around the polymer receiver. The bolt channel, ejection port, spring channels, etc. were cavities in the nylon.
 
How much of a glocks receaver is actually exposed to radiation(uv ect )? Not a lot, when its been fired. Just the grip when its hostered and out n about.
Vs. a cars bumper which is out side most of the time?
 
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