How is the 1911 designed to be carried?

GeneS

New member
I know that Jeff Cooper and others have convinced most of us the best way to carry the single action automatic is cocked and locked. I've always wondered though, how did John M. Browning think the Model 1911 should be carried?

IIRC, I saw a picture of a prototype of the 1911 that had two swinging links and NO thumb safety, just a hammer. No Condition One (round chambered, safety on) carry possible here. On the other hand, the Browning designed hammerless pocket pistols of this time period were definetly meant to be carried cocked and locked. As they actually had an internal hammer and a thumb safety, no Condition Two (round chambered, hammer down) carry possible with them.

So, has anyone ever heard or read what state of readiness John M. Browning really planned for the 1911 to be carried in? Or did he just give the U.S. Ordnance Board what they wanted and let the Services handle the carry details? Just a long time curiosity I've had. Gene
 
Hello. John M. Browning's original idea for the military pistol was with no thumb safety, only the grip safety to prevent "accidents."
He added the thumb safety at the insistance of the military. As the piece was originally intended for calvary use, it stands to reason that the pistol was to be carried cocked such that one hand could get it in action since the other would be holding reins. Best.
 
Well, the military's requirements for the new pistol called for an "automatic" safety that needed no action by the shooter to disengage or engage it, hence the grip safety, in hand off safe, out of hand off safe. The intent was to carry the pistol with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. Since it was the Cavalry was conducting the tests, many of they were done from horse back, I believe that during the testing more than one horse was retired from active duty with a 230 grain FMJ in its head, which resulted in the thumb safety requirement. Less wear and tear on horses. The carry requirement was C&L after that until they were changed again to chamber empty hammer down sometime in late 1912 or early 1913.



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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
IIRC all of John M.s semi-auto pistols were designed to be carried cocked and locked.

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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
 
As you point out, the original design had no thumb safety. The military (calvary) were going to use it just like they had always used a handgun:

Load it, ease the hammer down, holster it.

When needed, draw sidearm, cock hammer, shoot away.

But a revolver's hammer stays "down" when fired. If on foot, and not seriously bothered, lowering the hammer on an autopistol is not a difficult task. Atop a horse while trying to control said horse, the task becomes more difficult. JM solved the problem by adding the "safety lock".

The grip safety was a military requirement. I'm not sure if it came before or after the thumb safety. I have no doubt it was at the behest of a non-shooting senior officer.

Check out the 1905 (45ACP) and 1909(?) (38ACP) pistols for two examples of military and commercial pistols with NO thumb safety. If memory serves, no grip safety, either. Obviously the public expected more knowledge from shooters and gun owners, and less "activism" by attorneys.

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Archie
 
I remember reading in a gun magazine years ago (so it MUST be true) that Browning intended the 1911 .45 to be carried cocked with a round in the chamber and with the thumb safety disengaged, relying on the grip safety.

Doug
 
John Browning was a highly expwerienced shooter sa well as a gun designer. He did not think either grip safties or thumb safties were needed. His original mikitary automatics, the Colt .38 Military Model of 1902 and the Colt .45 ACP Model 1905 did not have either grip or thumb saties, They were added at the request of the army. The Model 1910 was essentially a 1911 withut a thumb saftey,
 
GeneS--Good thread. Prompts me to do a little research, rather than my chores. Thank you.

This was not the last time John Browning and the prime purchaser of his product differed on the manner of employment. I believe he intended his service pistols to be carried fully loaded and cocked without a manual safety. MUCH later on, in JMB's prototype of the High Power pistol, there was not even a grip safety. (Ca 1929--He died before the P-35 was a standardized pistol.)

The first model 1907 .45 automatic pistol submitted for U.S. Army testing did not have an "automatic safety." The board tested this and other pistols , 15--26 January and 19-- 28 March 1907.

A contract with Colt's dated 18 May 1907 for 200 pistols with certain modifications, including an automatic safety, to be delivered by 18 December 1907. The book illustrates one of these, grip safety, no thumb safety. This was still a "Two-link" pistol.

The Model 1909 was very similar, but of single link design, still without manual safety. One single pistol of this model, serial number 14, had an experimental thumb safety. There is no way to know if this was done in the serial sequence, or if this just happens to be a pistol produced at some previous date, and handy to be recalled for this special modification. I imagine the latter but who's to say? Apparently at least some of the field testing with the 1907 and 1909 pistols was done with chamber loaded, hammer back, and some with chamber loaded, hammer down, for thumb cocking. There is reference to at least one horse, ridden by a Pvt. Tyree, dying in a mishap thereby. (Anyone else recall Trooper Tyree in a couple of the John Wayne Cavalry movies?)

The 1910 test model continued this trend. Serial number 6 was modified to use a thumb safety about identical to that of the later 1911.

The Cavalry criticism was well founded, and called for corrective measures if Colt's expected the Board to change its mind. A device was needed that would permit the pistol to be carried with a cartridge in the chamber, without fear of an accidental discharge. If this could be accomplished, the horseman would simply turn off the safety and cock the hammer , without having to manipulate the slide. Such a safety would undoubtedly fulfill the requirements of the Infantry Board as well.

A careful reading of Bady's book indicates to me that the Artillery really liked the auto pistol as originally tested, the Infantry didn't care, and the Cavalry wanted something more than the grip safety. The late mods on the 1910 and, of course, the 1911, satisfied everyone. There is nothing in these reports to indicate that the Navy or Marines provided the slightest input.

Most of above information is from COLT AUTOMATIC PISTOLS, by Donald Bady, 1973. Publisher's information and page numbers on request.

One other reference--From the original War Department Field Manual 23-35, AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CALIBER .45 M1911 AND M1911A1, Prepared under direction of the Chief of Cavalry, Washington, 1940.
Page 11, sect. 12, "Method of operation— . . . b. If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, the lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock . . . then raising the pistol to the firing position."
Page 25: "c. . . . Keep the hammer fully down when the pistol is not loaded."

Yeah, I know--current wisdom is to NOT let slide slam on a loaded chamber, for fear of damaging the extractor.

Regardless of what some unit commanders ordered about empty chambers, etc, my research indicates that the military originally wanted the pistols carried loaded and cocked, maybe with manual safety applied, maybe not.

Best regards--
RR

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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---

[This message has been edited by Rocky Road (edited August 06, 2000).]
 
Jim V, even a revolver can be used to "brain blast" your trusty steed. I read a first person story by Lawrance of Arabia. During a charge against the enemy, he fired at one, saw another, and then found himself lying stunned, in the middle of a bunch of stomping camel feet. His camel lay nearby, with a .45 hole in the back of its head.

Bart Noir
War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
 
Thanks to all for the replies. A lot of very interesting info here. I must admit the idea of carrying cocked and UNlocked was something I never thought of from JMB. I suppose in these days of the Steyer M-series and such the ideas of 90+ years ago were a bit more daring. I bet there could have been quite a few accidental discharges though.

Rocky Road, Thanks a ton for all of the research. Great reading material. Sorry about the chores, maybe I can help wash the car. Gene
 
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