how do you spell "search" and what of probable cause.

Why does everyone have a problem with this?

Believe me I'm one of the first to scream about defending the constitution, including the 4th Amendment....

But, all this means, is that the police have another tool for establishing probable cause...and a good one at that....

As far as the dogs giving 60% false positives....I'd like to see how they tested that....I train dogs, and know several dog handlers, from all over the world...And, I've watched these dogs work...They are REALLY accurate...We tried to screw one up, and couldn't (100 pounds of rotting meat, within 10 ft of a drug "stash", dog went straight for the stash.) If the dogs are that bad, we're all in trouble, 'cause the some of the same dogs are sniffing baggage at the local airport.

Yes, I have my flame retardent suit on, so go for it.....

I'll repeat what I said in another thread....If you're not guilty of anything, what's to fear?
 
dfaugh wrote:

Yes, I have my flame retardent suit on, so go for it.....

I'll repeat what I said in another thread....If you're not guilty of anything, what's to fear?

*****

You don't need it on my account. I've never "flamed" anyone, and I do not intend to start now.

That aside, as to your closing question, I assumed that I had the right to travel unmolested. Perhaps that is no longer the case. As for the origin of this case, being stopped for driving 71 mph in a 65 mph zone on an INTERSTATE HIGHWAY, does not quite pass the smell test, in so far as I'm concerned.

By the bye, given that I know little or nothing about the training of dogs, to do anything in particular, I'll pass on their accuracy of lack thereof re discovering drugs, explosives or a meaty bone.

In conclusion, this entire bit about The War On Drugs has set the hair on the back of my neck standing since the first time I heard politicans talking or double-talking about it. Years ago, I said to myself, and to others too that the greatest casuality in that particular war would be the civil rights of Americans. I still think that such is the case.

As to your "what's to fear", just this. The selfaggrandizement practiced by some combined with what appears to be their never ending search for MORE, as in more authority, and more power, all of which, it seems to me, comes out of the hide of the law abiding, who it appears suffer ever more restrictions, all for their own good of course, and or in the name of some conveniently unspecified greater good.
 
Driving at 71 in a posted 65 mph zone, if done with either SMD or by pace, if your equipment is properly calibrated is more than enough PC for the stop.

Most people assume that you are safe if you are less than 10 mph over the posted speed. 'Taint so.

Most States have a "bail schedule" which lists fines for traffic infractions. In Washington, ONE mph over the speed limit can net a fine. It's in the officer's discretion.

Moreover, there is probably plenty more that alerted the officer and gave him incentive to make the stop. In the sake of propriety, I'll stop there.

With regard to the totality of the stop, it sounds like good police work to me.
 
Powderman, I don't think anyone here really believes that the initial stop was wrong. Caballes broke the law by driving faster than the posted limit.

The stop was made. The arresting officer decided to write the driver a warning ticket, and was in fact writing the ticket as the second officer pulled up and initiated the "non-search." The court records are clear. Not only was there no probable cause to expand the stop from a minor traffic violation, there wasn't a shred of articulable reasonable suspicion (ARS) to expand the stop beyond what it was. A routine traffic stop.

What the Court has done over a period of time is to redefine what a search is. Traditionally, the Court has focused on how the search was conducted rather than the substance of the search itself. Starting in 1984 with United States v. Jacobsen this traditional definition began to be turned around. In this case, the Court held that testing of a persons drugs was not a search because a person has no property rights in illegal drugs. No property rights, no expectation of privacy.

I could go on citing the other cases that laid the foundation for the ruling in Illinois v. Caballes, but the Court has now gone to the extreme that says the dog sniff is nothing more than an extension of the officers own senses. That is, because a dog can smell better than a human, then the dogs alert becomes the same as the humans response to items "in plain and public view." The dog, which was a tool, is now an extension of the officer himself.

How much longer will it be before that infared scanner (Kyllo v. United States) becomes another extension of the officers senses and such imaging becomes a legal"non-search?" No probable cause needed. Not even ARS.

As Ginsburg protests, I see the day when such things are routine and the public is subjected to routine surveillance by dogs and other sensory enhancing equipment. Find something wrong... And arrest the evildoer. All without ever needing a warrant, as such things are nothing more than an extension of the officers own senses and therefore what the officer discovers is a "plain sight" discovery. No "search" involved.

That's a probable future. Not what we have today.

What the instant case today does is two-fold. It relegates a dogs sniff to be equal to the officers own senses and, it allows for the expansion of the scope of the initial stop well beyond the initial reasons for that stop without any suspicion whatsoever.
 
It is bs......The guy had on nice clothes and that got the officers attention(spider sense tingling) The officer probably called for the drug dog and was fishing.....He might even have drug out(pun intended) the ticket writing process to allow the dog to come by......What is my point? At that time the officer saw no crime and should have responded accordingly....Many people are nervous around officers(especially if they have had bad past experiences/like me). I got into an argument with a land lord once and she called the police on me for say,(exact quote in my apartment)"I am a grown a** man and you can't tell me who I can have here and what I can say here" her response (in my apartment)" You just assaulted me I am going to get the police....my response "Good now get out of my apartment". She returns with this officer(a sherriff that I have seen her and her husband{who was also a sherrif} sitting and talking with this officer many times in front of the office building) and who do you think he believes? In fairly short form I am confronted by the elderly gentleman and asked,"Did you curse this lady" my honost response," yes" . Deputy says" You have messed up now boy" and begins trying to push me over my couch.....He did not even ask what the circumstances were :eek: Even though I could have easily beaten the tar out of this old fart I allowed myself to be cuffed and placed into a car in the parking lot. Horror of all horrors I hear the sherriff say"I think I saw something in plain sight, I am going to go and search his apartment". I am frozen in horror as the landlord(the little nazi lady) and sherriff go and search my apartment for me cussing in my own home!!!!!
The fear came not from having something to hide but from the fact of Knowing I was innocent and now being subjected to an illegal search of my belongings. While my apartment was searched I prayed to God this officer and landlord did not plant something as I knew he saw nothing in plain sight but wanted to go fishing.....After 15-20 minutes in tight fitting handcuffs(I asked a second officer that arrived to loosen them to no avail) with my neighbors watching me be humiliated they returned out of my apartment and the manager left to the office and they returned to me in the car.....With out thinking I say"find what you were looking for" or something like it and the officer does not respond. He begins writing up a ticket while asking for my imfo to put in.....After all is said and done I receive a ticket for disorderly conduct in my own home :eek: As the cuffs are removed for me to sign the ticket I ask the officers name(intentionally trying to let him know that I will be filling a complaint) and he does not tell me....I look on the ticket and see chicken scratch.....I try to see his badge number but conveniently it did not have a number .So I got the cars license plate ;) I filed a report but it didnot make me feel any better.....

We give officers alot of power and when the wrong ones get it bad things happen....Sure this guy with the pot would have gotten away but the system aint perfect.....This simply draws us closer to the inevitable police state in which random searches are common and even accepted by the public. Who needs real police work when we can use chance to find the bad guys for us!
So what the guy was nervous, dressed nice, and smelled good. Most of these busts come down to dumb luck or bad luck if you are the criminal not some sixth sense the officers have. If he wasn't speeding in the first place the guy would have been above suspicion.



PS I finally had to leave the apartment after she attempted to evict me. I fought it but eventually gave in because I just couldn't deal with the racist land lady and had already paid 1000 dollar retainer to a lawyer that said leave any way.They(the corrupt couple)were eventually found out to be corrupt(stealing money, allowing some to pay no rent, searching tennants apartments illegaly, and using her husbands position as a shield to do what she pleased) He would actually walk the grounds off duty sometimes in flip flops with a police shirt and his duy belt :rolleyes: and you could tell it was not to protect and serve(he was found out to be under investigation by IA for shooting a young black kid in the woods). I love irony, they both had to be evicted :D as they would not leave when she was fired.....The Naacp almost got called in for this neo nazi lady.....I had to go to court before the DA who promptly threw the case out(in hindsight I wish I would have told her the entire story but I just wanted to get the inconvenience over with. The apartment complex was assited living(which I was not on) and mostly ethnic groups(hispanic,black) and the little nazi was hispanic as well :eek: .
 
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Too many choices- I would encourage you to go to the headquarters of any police agency whose members conduct themselves in that fashion and file a FORMAL complaint immediately! Contrary to what some might think, a citizen complaint can bring real grief down on a bad cop. All the larger departments have mandatory guidelines to follow upon receiving complaints and cops REALLY hate getting one. That kind of police behavior causes problems down the road for other officers if they happen to come in contact with the citizen who now believes the police are all a$$%@(s.
 
Also, to add to Steve's post, if you do not think that the Department will handle the complaint, go to the State Patrol--in your case, the Department of Public Safety.

The State Patrol is charged with the investigation of criminal acts such as the ones you describe within local departments.

And if that does not work, the FBI also investigates and prosecutes hate crimes.
 
Just as an attempt at perspective...

So you're doing 71 in a 65. Officer Radar stops you and asks for your license, registration and insurance card.

How often do you think he is automatically going to call in the drug dog to sniff your car? How many jursidictions do you (anybody) think has enough drug dogs to sniff every vehicle stopped for basic speed, or a sloppy right turn at a stop sign, or even expired license?

The reality is, the cop has to have some reason for calling the drug sniffer. There has to be something that rang his bell.

And, as been pointed out, this court ruling is not a 'new' idea. It simply allowed a standard practise that has been going on since the development of drug sniffer dogs.
 
The reality is, the cop has to have some reason for calling the drug sniffer. There has to be something that rang his bell.


Not exactly.

Where I work as a Deputy Sheriff, if I happen to be close by when I hear a call, I'll automatically assist unless Im doing something else. Since we all get the same radio traffic, it is very possible that the K-9 unit just happened to be in the genreal vicinity and decided to stop by.

If the dog has been in the car for any amount of time, chances are he's gonna let it out to stretch his legs or let him take a leak. When the dog is let out, he will automatically stand by the handler. IF he smells something, them he will "sign" the officer who then has probable cause for a search.


IMHO...stopping someone that is doing less than 10 or 15 over is pretty chickensh*t. There are plenty enough speeders out there that just stopping the ones that are sure enough disregarding the law and driving like maniacs would take up all of your time if you let it.
 
Antipitas wrote:

"The arresting officer decided to write the driver a warning ticket, and was in fact writing the ticket as the second officer pulled up and initiated the "non-search." The court records are clear. Not only was there no probable cause to expand the stop from a minor traffic violation, there wasn't a shred of articulable reasonable suspicion (ARS) to expand the stop beyond what it was. A routine traffic stop."

***

The original stop, while something of a stretch in my view, was legitimate. Anything beyond that wasn't and this business of the dog's nose being an extention of the officers senses is pure sohpistry.

"What the Court has done over a period of time is to redefine what a search is. Traditionally, the Court has focused on how the search was conducted rather than the substance of the search itself. Starting in 1984 with United States v. Jacobsen this traditional definition began to be turned around. In this case, the Court held that testing of a persons drugs was not a search because a person has no property rights in illegal drugs. No property rights, no expectation of privacy."

***

And that my dear Watson is the heart of the matter, that being judicial twisting of things, including police actions.

"I could go on citing the other cases that laid the foundation for the ruling in Illinois v. Caballes, but the Court has now gone to the extreme that says the dog sniff is nothing more than an extension of the officers own senses. That is, because a dog can smell better than a human, then the dogs alert becomes the same as the humans response to items "in plain and public view." The dog, which was a tool, is now an extension of the officer himself."

****

Please see my first comment re what is part of "the officers senses". As to this "plain sight" business, anything that was in the drivers lap, on the dashboard or on the front passengers sewat, or rear seat, if there was one such, is in "plain sight". Nothing else is.

"How much longer will it be before that infared scanner (Kyllo v. United States) becomes another extension of the officers senses and such imaging becomes a legal"non-search?" No probable cause needed. Not even ARS."

*********

A very good, though troubling question. One possible answer is altogether to soon.

"As Ginsburg protests, I see the day when such things are routine and the public is subjected to routine surveillance by dogs and other sensory enhancing equipment. Find something wrong... And arrest the evildoer. All without ever needing a warrant, as such things are nothing more than an extension of the officers own senses and therefore what the officer discovers is a "plain sight" discovery. No "search" involved."

******

That day might be a whole lot closer than many either realize, or are willing to admit.



"What the instant case today does is two-fold. It relegates a dogs sniff to be equal to the officers own senses and, it allows for the expansion of the scope of the initial stop well beyond the initial reasons for that stop without any suspicion whatsoever. "

*********

What the court has done with this case is to bring THE POLICE STATE a giant step closer. Such claims as might be made regarding the advancement of some conveniently unstated "greater good", and or that "it's all for your own good", and then there is that "do it for the children" bit simply do not hold water. Citizens rights diminish, while bureaucratic powers grow.
 
Archie wrote:

"The reality is, the cop has to have some reason for calling the drug sniffer. There has to be something that rang his bell."

*********

Re your last, what might that have been, this thing that "rings bells"? Reading your post, it strikes me that, for whatever reason(s) you might have, you are bendinhg over backwards. That is fine, in the event that that's what you want to do. It isn't what I want to do, or what I would do.
 
Readers might want to think on the loss of rights, and what it is that contributes thereto. Is the achievment of some conveniently unspecified greater good, or fighting the war on drugs sufficient?

I didn't realize that was even a valid question. The times they are a changin'....
 
You're posting as if some new legal ground has been broken. I don't see it that way. You still need probable cause plus exigent circumstances to look in the trunk without a warrant. The dog alert IS the probable cause and the fact that you're talking about a vehicle on the highway is the exigent circumstances. The only other issue is if the guy was detained without reasonable suspicion, and that answer is NO. The cop spent a reasonable amount of time to conduct a traffic stop based on the information he had. He asked for consent to search, which is fine, and he likely ran the guy and his car through the computer, which is fine, and he wrote a warning ticket for the traffic violation. Along came the dog before the guy had been released and hit on the car after sniffing along the outside. What's new here? I don't see any new ground at all in this decision. There is plenty of prior case law that says the dog can search all he wants as long as he doesn't intrude on a constitutionally protected area or as long as the stop wasn't unconstitutional. Sniffing around during a lawful stop is perfectly constitutional.

"The reality is, the cop has to have some reason for calling the drug sniffer. There has to be something that rang his bell."

Not true at all. As long as the stop was legal and the guy wasn't detained to wait for the dog, the cop can call for the dog just because the stop took place on a day that ended in "y" if he wants to.
 
This particular ruling, since it involves searching the PUBLIC domain (smells in the air outside your car - not an unreasonable search in my view, in theory anyway), would not be a problem *IF* all police had integrity. But alas, they do not, and this is just ripe for massive abuse via police LYING, as certain ones often do, in this case about whether the dog "hit", or even going as far as training the dog to indicate a "hit" through some subtle gesture by the officer. Though MOST officers have integrity, this HAS happened, IS happening and will continue to happen (fake hits) in order to establish probably cause and invade people's privacy, not to mention waste their time.

"The reality is, the cop has to have some reason for calling the drug sniffer. There has to be something that rang his bell."

Not true at all. As long as the stop was legal and the guy wasn't detained to wait for the dog, the cop can call for the dog just because the stop took place on a day that ended in "y" if he wants to.

That's exactly right, Frank, not true at all - that's precisely one of the points of the ruling is that they need neither probable cause, nor even reasonable suspicion (a lower threshhold) in order to (a) detain you for a fair amount of time, and (b) bring out the dogs and start sniffin.
 
FrankDrebin, PsychoSword and others:

When you have that odd moment, have a look at the following, from today's CATO Daily Dispatch. Go to www.cato.org, and scroll all the way down, then click on the link found there. (War on Drugs -- and the Bill of Rights, by Radley Balko).

Read the thing with some care and consider carefully what is said. I believe that you all might find the piece "interesting".
 
Re: the Cato link:

The most notable example is the 1990 case of Michigan vs. Sitz, where the Supreme Court ruled that the problem of drunk driving was so pervasive, the Court could allow "random sobriety checkpoints" in which cops stop motorists without probable cause and give them breath tests, a practice that would otherwise again violate the Fourth Amendment.

The Fourth Amendment protects against "unreasonable" searches and seizures. Those searches and seizures that society is preparted to recognize as unreasonable. I don't think the majority of society recognizes sobriety checkpoints as unreasonable as long as they're not arbitrary. Nevertheless, sobriety checkpoints are still not permitted in Michigan, despite the federal ruling.

State legislatures have pounced on these rulings. The state of Washington just passed two laws remarkable in their disdain for everything our criminal justice system is supposed to represent. The first instructs juries in drunk driving cases to consider the evidence "in a light most favorable to the prosecution," an evidentiary standard that's unheard of anywhere else in criminal law.

I don't believe this is true either. I can't quote them off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure there are other circumstances where this standard also holds true.

Last year, Pennsylvanian Keith Emerich had his license revoked by state authorities after he revealed to his doctor during an emergency room visit that he sometimes drinks a six-pack of beer per day. His doctor reported him. Emerich wasn't accused or charged with drunk driving. In a bizarre twist on the principle of "presumption of innocence," Emerich must now prove to the state that he doesn't drive after drinking before he can get his license back.

That's weird, and I would say unlawful....

More and more states are taking advantage of the Supreme Court's granted exemption to a right to a jury trial for DUI-DWI suspects, particularly in states where judges are elected, not appointed. That, of course, is because elected judges deemed insufficiently harsh on such defendants can have their "leniency" used against them in a re-election campaign.

This statement is rather misleading. It implies that the ruling was specific to DWI trials. I could be wrong, but I believe the ruling applied to ALL misdemeanor trials. And I believe that it doesn't say that you CAN'T have a jury trial, but rather that the prosecutor can decide whether the case will go before a jury or be bench trial....I don't really agree with that one either.....As far as the mandatory sentencing for the drug dealer with a gun, GOOD!! I have no sympathy for a guy selling drugs, even if it's just weed, while armed with a gun. I'd have a little sympathy for him if he didn't have the gun. Most homicides I've seen over 20 years have been drug-related in some way.

I'm surprised the article didn't mention domestic violence. In my opinion, that's where rights are REALLY being eroded. The probable cause standard for arrest has practically been eliminated.


That's exactly right, Frank, not true at all - that's precisely one of the points of the ruling is that they need neither probable cause, nor even reasonable suspicion (a lower threshhold) in order to (a) detain you for a fair amount of time, and (b) bring out the dogs and start sniffin.

They still need at least reasonable suspicion to detain you. The detention was based on the traffic offense. Any looking or sniffing he does outside a constitutionally protected area during that detention is fair game as long as the stop isn't any longer than necessary to conduct the business that is reasonably associated with the offense the guy was stopped for, ie. running names and plates, issuing tickets or warnings, etc. I don't see anything new here. What's the new part? He wasn't being detained for a drug search, he was being detained for a traffic offense. Thank God that pretextual traffic stops are still lawful, although I'm sure that over zealous cops will screw that one up for us too in the near future.

Remember, legally speaking, a "search" consists of 1. looking for something and 2. in a constitutionally protected area. If both aspects are not present, IT IS NOT A SEARCH. The way I read this case, they were trying to say that the driver had a reasonable expectation of privacy in the "air" or "aroma" outside his car. I think it's just silly to say that the aroma outside a car is a constitutionally protected area. This case does not change anything, nor does it grant any more search and seizure authority than was already available.
 
re the CATO article I referenced

I hope others are able to find the article via the link. Should it fail, they sometimes do, text follows.
January 31, 2005


War on Drugs -- and the Bill of Rights
by Radley Balko

Radley Balko is a policy analyst for the Cato Institute.


Last week, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that if you're pulled over by the police for speeding or, say, not wearing your seatbelt, they may bring out drug-sniffing dogs to investigate your car without violating the Fourth Amendment.

On the Volokh Conspiracy website, Orin Kerr observes that Justice John Paul Stevens, writing for the majority, indicated that the Fourth Amendment protects not against violations of privacy or invasiveness, but against violation of property rights. Since one can't have property rights for illicit drugs, a search can't violate the Fourth Amendment.

It was a troubling precedent. It's hard to see how any police search would violate any rights under Justice Stevens' ruling, so long as the search turned up something illegal, which undermines what the Fourth Amendment is all about.

That case was the latest in a number of court rulings and pieces of legislation that have been chipping away at the criminal justice rights of substance-abuse suspects. Ours is quickly becoming a two-tiered criminal justice system -- one in which there are one set of criminal protections for drug and alcohol defendants, and a broader set of protections for everyone else.

Last month in Virginia, pain physician Dr. William Hurwitz was convicted on dozens of counts of drug distribution. Prosecutors and the foreman of the jury that convicted him conceded that Hurwitz didn't knowingly participate in a drug trade, but because the some of the pain medication he prescribed was sold on the black market, he was nevertheless found guilty. He faces life in prison. Proving intent -- as is required to secure a conviction in nearly every other crime -- apparently wasn't necessary.

The drug war has been eating at the Bill of Rights since its inception. Asset forfeiture laws, for example, allow law enforcement to seize the assets of suspected drug dealers before they're ever convicted of a crime. Even if the defendant is acquitted or the charges are dropped, the mere presence of an illicit substance in a car or home can mean the loss of the property, on the bizarre, legal principle that property can be guilty of a crime.

Thanks to mandatory minimum sentencing laws, a judge in Utah recently had no choice but to sentence a first-time marijuana dealer to 55 years in prison (he had a pistol strapped to his ankle during the one-time deal, though he never brandished it). Frustrated but hamstrung by drug laws, the judge in the case noted that just hours earlier, he had sentenced a convicted murderer to just 22 years for beating an elderly woman to death with a log. Courts have carved out a "drug war exemption" in the Bill of Rights for multiple search and seizure scenarios, privacy, wiretapping, opening your mail, highway profiling, and posse comitatus — the forbidden use of the U.S. military for domestic policing.

The other area where criminal protections are withering in the face of substance-abuse hysteria is in Driving Under the Influence or Driving While Intoxicated cases.

The most notable example is the 1990 case of Michigan vs. Sitz, where the Supreme Court ruled that the problem of drunk driving was so pervasive, the Court could allow "random sobriety checkpoints" in which cops stop motorists without probable cause and give them breath tests, a practice that would otherwise again violate the Fourth Amendment.

The Court has since ruled that the urgency of the drunken driving problem gives states the option to legislate away a motorist's Sixth Amendment right to a jury trial and his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. In 2002, the Supreme Court of Wisconsin ruled that police officers could forcibly extract blood from anyone suspected of drunk driving. Other courts have ruled that prosecutors aren't obligated to provide defendants with blood or breath test samples for independent testing, even though both could be done relatively easily.

State legislatures have pounced on these rulings. The state of Washington just passed two laws remarkable in their disdain for everything our criminal justice system is supposed to represent. The first instructs juries in drunk driving cases to consider the evidence "in a light most favorable to the prosecution," an evidentiary standard that's unheard of anywhere else in criminal law. The second mandates that breath test evidence be admissible, no matter what -- even if the defense can prove that the breath test machine was broken, or jiggered toward higher readings.

Last year, Pennsylvanian Keith Emerich had his license revoked by state authorities after he revealed to his doctor during an emergency room visit that he sometimes drinks a six-pack of beer per day. His doctor reported him. Emerich wasn't accused or charged with drunk driving. In a bizarre twist on the principle of "presumption of innocence," Emerich must now prove to the state that he doesn't drive after drinking before he can get his license back.

More and more states are taking advantage of the Supreme Court's granted exemption to a right to a jury trial for DUI-DWI suspects, particularly in states where judges are elected, not appointed. That, of course, is because elected judges deemed insufficiently harsh on such defendants can have their "leniency" used against them in a re-election campaign.

Though no such bill has yet been signed into law, several state legislatures have considered legislation that would mandate ignition interlock devices in every car sold in the state. New Mexico's version of the law would require all drivers to blow into a tube before starting their car, then again every 10 minutes while driving. Drivers over the legal limit would not be able to start their cars or, if already on the road, given a window of time to pull over. Onboard computer systems would keep data on each test, which service centers would download once a month or so and send to law enforcement officials for evaluation.

The problem, as Thomas Jefferson famously said, is that the natural process of things is for liberty to yield and for government to gain ground. It would take a rare and brave politician to stand up and say that we need to roll back or reconsider our drug laws, or that it's unfair to give accused murderers or rapists more rights than we give DWI defendants. But that's exactly what needs to happen.


A version of this article appeared on Foxnews.com, January 27, 2005
 
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