How do you reduce case stretch?

BJung

New member
After reading a thread about the sizing button stretching cases, I decided to take precautions with what I had.

Resizing 7RM brass, I measured 10 cases at 2.492". I resized 10 by spraying 5 with Hornady One shot around and just inside the neck and let it dry. I sprayed the bodies of 5 and put a light film of Imperial wax on the outside of the neck mouth and scrapped any excess inside the mouth for every case. After resizing, the measurement of all the cases came out to be 2.496". I was disappointed thinking that the use of the Imperial wax would reduce stretch. I have RCBS lube but didn't test this because I don't use it.

Anyone else used a different lube? I don't have an X-Die, Collet die, or bushing die but welcome the comments.
 
Just size with a Redding body die, it doesn’t resize the neck. Then resize the neck with a Lee Collet Neck sizing die, no neck lube needed. This also gives little to no runout as well, in both my .223 and 6.5CM the worst runout I see is .001” but most often between .000 and .0005. This is using a Forster Micro seating die.
 
You are apparently using a full length sizing die. Removing the expander button will not stop the case from getting longer. Using a full length sizing die reduces the diameter of the case body. The length of the case is the only place for the brass to go so the case length will increase.
 
Using a full length sizing die reduces the diameter of the case body. The length of the case is the only place for the brass to go so the case length will increase.

While the expander MIGHT be adding to it, this is most likely what you are seeing.

Simple to check, just remover the expander unit and measure some cases, before and after sizing. Bet you'll see the same (or very close) amount of stretch.

You're squeezing a brass tube, it has to either get longer or collapse.
 
"You're squeezing a brass tube, it has to either get longer or collapse."

nothing much to do with friction. if I squish the circumference of a water balloon it gets longer... same principle. Friction might pull the neck out of alignment though.
 
Belted Magnums headspace on the belt, so I never full size after first firing. I set a penny between the die and shell holder to avoid moving the shoulder. I use Imperial Wax for the body and Imperial Dry Neck Lube. I rarely have to trim and I shoot full house loads.
 
Thanks for that tip. I will make a note of it and try to buy some of the Dry Neck Lube when possible. What dies are you using GeauTide just out of curiosity? Do you roll the casings on a pad?
 
Lots of interesting comments, but none will limit case growth. FL sizing to the longest dimension that will fit in your chamber will yield some improvement. Try backing off your fl die in until it will barely chamber.
 
burbank jung

I had the same issue at one time. The problem I found was I set the sizing die up per the manufacturers instructions. That resulted in the brass being too small for my chamber. With each cycle (firing and resizing) the brass would stretch, resulting in premature failure.
I went back and reset the die higher in the press and observed how far down the neck I was sizing. I screwed the die down further and checked the same piece of brass again. When 3/4 of the neck length was being sized I checked to see if it would chamber in the rifle. In my rifle that was where I stopped.
This may not be your issue but setting the die to match my chamber length seems to have improved the brass life and has helped improve my accuracy.
 
Re: case mouth lube, I use a cotton swab (Hoppes, and others) connected to a small handle made by RCBS. Buy some powdered graphite and fill a plastic prescription vial about half-way. Dip the swab and shake off excess by rattling it against the inside of the container. I can hold 5 rifle cases in my left hand and swab each mouth with the graphite swab in my right hand. One container of graphite lasts years.
 
Burbank Jung,

I'm guessing that you were expecting the stretch of the brass resulted from the expander pulling on the neck, but that effect is almost negligible. If it were significant, the case's shoulder angle would be pulled narrower and the diameter at the body and shoulder junction narrowed as a result of the pulling. An expander can tilt a neck a little off-axis, so the effect isn't zero, but overall it just isn't much. Maybe a thousandth of an inch or so. You can tell by comparing the dimensions of a case you full-length resize with the expander removed to the dimensions of one resized with it in place. That small change can be affected by lube, but overall, it's in the minority of what causes brass lengthening.

Below is an exaggerated drawing showing how the case growth we trim occurs mainly during resizing, not it in the gun. In the gun, a full-length resized case will grow to fill any excess headspace, but that happens at the wider diameter of the case. When we resize, the brass expanding to fill the chamber is re-narrowed, squeezing the case longer, as already described. The excess length that results is extruded by the sizing die up into the narrower neck portion, making the length even greater. This is why, after the first firing, neck-sized-only brass doesn't normally require trimming.

Note the two black dots I put as markers on the cases below. At the start of sizing in the left image where squeezing lengthens the case body, the dots are on the brass just below the shoulder and on the shoulder just below the neck. After the case is narrowed, constrained by the die, its shoulder is jammed into the die shoulder. When that happens, the brass with the lower dot on it is extruded up into the bottom of the shoulder and the shoulder brass with the upper dot on it is extruded up into the neck, making the neck longer. This happens because there is nowhere else for the brass to go when the die body is constraining the outside dimension of the rest of it.

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Nathan - Oh no! I read about resizing brass to the chamber but forgot about it! I'm too far along to turn back. At best I can say the brass was fired from another rifle and will still need to be fireformed to my chamber. I'll research Lee Collet dies vs FL chamber resizing later. I wonder if the later is as or better.

OldDav - I do this as a form of neck sizing in the past, not knowing that I was chamber resizing my fireformed-to-my-chamber brass. Thanks.

cdoc42. Is graphite a way better lube than the wax? I'll have to look that up. Imperial makes a dry lube. Is that the same? I'll have to look that up.

Uncle Nick. Are you a Professor? If not, that could be your alias because you come up with the most detailed information and don't criticize anyone in the process. And - yes, I thought the stretch was by the neck because Lee makes a collet die, and there are bushing dies.
 
burbank, I haven't used wax to make a comparison, but the graphite is not expensiveand it works and shouldn't interfere with powder as I understand graphite is used in powder manufacture. If the cotton swabs become a cost issue, on can simply use an ordinary cotton-tipped applicator.
 
Cdoc42,

Yes. Graphite coating to improve flow, repel water, and conduct static electricity (the reason black powder has long been glazed with it) is what makes most smokeless powders look black. If you look at powder that extinguished early in a failed ignition, it looks a little like sticks or spheres of bee's wax fused together. That's because the outer layer, including the graphite, burned off before it extinguished. (There's an explanation of why smokeless powder can extinguish, despite supplying its own oxygen, in the 2013 print version of the Norma databook, for anyone interested.)


Burbank Jung,

Always glad to help sort out confusion.

The unique advantage of the Lee Collet neck sizing die is that it sizes to a specific inside diameter determined by its mandrel, and not to a specific outside diameter determined by a die profile or bushing do. This means the Lee die always sizes the right amount (assuming you apply enough pressure) regardless of how thick the brass in the cartridge neck is. The standard die style relies on over-resizing necks and then expanding the ID to correct diameter in order to work universally with all different neck wall thicknesses. A bushing die lets you select a bushing to bring the neck to an OD that results in a desired ID, but that usually means having two or more bushings to allow that different makes or sometimes just different lots of brass may have different neck wall thicknesses. Also, where the mandrel on the LEE will open up small case mouth dents as the case enters the die, you need at least a next-caliber-smaller expander in a standard or bushing sizing die to expand neck dents.

Keep in mind the Lee Collet Die only resizes the case neck, same as a neck-sizing-only bushing die does. To get some shoulder setback you use another die. This can be a Redding Body Die, which is inexpensive and made for this sort of thing, or a Bushing Full Length sizing die without the bushing in place. You can also use the Forster Bushing-Bump Die with no bushing if you only want to shorten the head-to-shoulder length, but not narrow the case diameter (less brass working and less trimming needed, but the possibility, as with neck sizing only, that the die will eventually need to go through an FL die to keep fitting into the chamber. Whether or not that happens depends on how much peak pressure you are loading the brass to and how thick your chamber walls are. Some mild loads in some rifles never stretch to brass diameter hard enough not to spring back to fit again and never need FL resizing. Others need it in just two or three load cycles.

I always use the Redding Body Die with the Lee Collet die for cartridges to be fed from a magazine. In the military-style floating firing pin self-loaders there is added potential for slamfires or out-of-battery firing if the cases don't feed with minimal resistance, so I don't trust a snug diameter with these.

Bushing dies, whether FL or Bushing Bump can also be used with a bushing rather than using the Lee Collet Die at all. The main advantage to the Lee die, in addition to the controlling the neck ID being produced is the intrinsic straightness of the resized case (see this video.

Decisions, decisions.

Graphite and Motor Mica are both common dry neck lubes. NECO sells a system that uses acid-neutralized molybdenum disulfide powder, though be cautioned that a little of that will get into the bore, which can affect your velocity and sweet spot, making you tweak the load when it settles. The same applies to hex-from boron nitride (hBN). But the added lubrication has the value of tending to reduce metal fouling in the bore. Indeed, G. David Tubb sells his TubbDust that you mix with powder precisely for the reduction of metal fouling.

All the above are generally employed on the premise a wet lube or a wax can affect powder ignition and burning rate. In handgun loading, for which wax and grease-lubricated bullets have been a longtime mainstay, you very occasionally hear of someone who had a squib load they blame on their powder being wetted by bullet lube, perhaps when the cartridge got too hot someplace, melting the wax. But that's pretty unusual. Also, because one kind of powder breakdown occurs that makes the powder look oily, you can also be looking at a case of mistaken identification of the real problem in those instances. Wax lubricated bullets (.22 Rimfire and others) have been around without causing a problem for a long time. So my sense is the effect is an overblown worry for the most part. Could you detect the difference in a high precision benchrest load? Maybe. The simplest test would be to dry lube a bunch of necks and wet lube a bunch and see which one produces the lower velocity SD. Make enough for a few tests and reshoot the test periodically as the ammunition ages to make sure nothing has changed.
 
Unclenick, I am more than certain I speak for the crowd when I thank you for your participation and encyclopedic knowledge.
 
How to reduce case stretch?

- Minimally resize to only 0.001/2" inches from full shoulder contact.
- Lightly lube (or just leave residual sizing lube on) the case body.

All things considered, the rather minimal increase in bolt thrust is small potatoes in modern rifles loaded within spec.
 
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