How clean should your brass be for long term storage ??

M

Metal god

New member
This was brought to my attention recently in another thread . I figured I'd start this one rather then hijack the other

Unclenick said:
Citric acid is also used by brass manufacturers to clean brass prior to long-term storage, as it leaves the surface passive. It doesn't over-etch brass in any practical concentration.
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I'd like to understand this more and when I say clean I mean the inside of the case . I've heard/read about needing your cases very clean if you load ammo for long term (20+ years ) . Is it a must , strongly recommended or not all that important ? I have loaded some rounds for that very type of time line but only used dry corn cob to clean .

The number of rounds loaded for long term storage is not that much really . 1500 give or take a couple hundred . These are multiple calibers but mostly 223 & 308 . Some have high end or hard to find projectiles while others are as cheap as they get .

My question is should I consider just shooting the cheap stuff and reloading more after I've tumbled the brass in a rotary tumbler with SS pins and citric acid to make all the brass passive ? Then pulling the good projectiles and powders . Reload the primed cases for plinking and or what ever . Then take the good projectiles and load those in brass I've already cleaned in the citric acid solution ??

On a side note can/should I use the pulled powder for the new long term storage rounds or just start all new ? All knew seems like the logical choice and use the pulled powder for a more immediate use . This question goes to , has the powder been affected negatively by being in these "dirty" cases for a couple years now ? or could it have been ?
 
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Citric acid is also used by brass manufacturers to clean brass prior to long-term storage, as it leaves the surface passive. It doesn't over-etch brass in any practical concentration.
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I'd like to understand this more .
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Before the Internet there was case cleaning and case long time storage. There was nothing timid about cleaning cases for long time storage when it came to acid. Back then they had time factor; the acid used limited cleaning to 2 minutes or less and required to soakings in boiling water, twice. And then after that; the cases turned black and were stored in sealed containers.

I do not load ahead, cases that look as good today as they did when they were loaded 40+ years ago are stored in sealed ammo cans. In the last year I have pulled down 600 + belted magnum cases stored in fiber ammo boxes. Most still had case lube in them and close to 10% would have caused problems if an attempt had been made to fire them. I saved the cases and bullets; I dis not save the primers and or powder.

F. Guffey
 
I'm not 100% sure of your point but I'll guess and say you do think a very clean case is important . I have to assume those 600 cartridges were factory new and some how/reason they left case lube on the inside . Is that common practice for manufacturers to leave case lube in the factory virgin brass ? I'd think a large company like those would have ran there sized cases through a rinse of some sort ?? Were this by any chance war time cartridges where they cut corners in order to get the ammo to the troops quickly . After all I'm sure they were expecting them to be fired in the next year or so and not sit around for the next 60+ years .

I've been told on numerous occasions when buying factory new cases you don't need to size or clean them . Would that be inaccurate ? Do manufacturers send there virgin brass to customers with case lube all over them ?
 
For long-term storage there are several considerations. One is cold soldering of bullets to brass, which raises pressure a bit. Not contaminating the powder with anything that bothers it is another. A little case lube doesn't seem to bother it, but I've not done anything long term with that in place.

Another issue is knowing how fresh your powder is. This is a problem for hand loaders. The powder sold for handloading is called canister grade. It's basically the same stuff a manufacturer would buy with the same number, except that because a manufacturer has a pressure gun and reference ammunition to calibrate and adjust his loads with, things a handloader doesn't usually have, he can get away with using powder lots with more burn rate variation than a handloader can. So the manufacturer can buy a bulk lot, adjust to its burn rate, then use it.

Since most handloaders use recipes, they need powders that are more consistent in burn rate from lot to lot than the fellow with a pressure gun does. To provide that, powder manufacturers test burn rates of new lots of bulk powder of the type they would sell a commercial ammo maker directly, but then have held back quantities from previous lots that turned out to be extra fast or extra slow that he blends in with the new lot, as needed, to correct the new bulk lot's burn rate toward a nominal value. How old those held-back lots are is what determines how long the powder may be stored before it starts to break down. We never have that information. As a result, it has happened a few times that commercial powders have been recalled for breaking down prematurely.

For that reason, the best thing for an emergency supply would be to kit a box with primed cases and bullets in a sealed box with some desiccant and a Lee hand tool and a seating die and a Lee powder scoop of the appropriate size for your developed load or a Perfect measure set to the desired charge, then store the powder separately (powder break-down products are corrosive). The brass and primers and bullets will then keep essentially indefinitely. The powder is the unknown, and you can swap it out for new lots on a first-in, first-out basis, using the older one over time.
 
I get the idea of wanting to store an ammo supply for shortages, ect.
BUT!,
Ammo is NOT fine wine, it simply won't get 'Better' with age.

Governments have spent 100s of Millions on research and over 100 years figuring out the best ways to store ammo long term...
Trying to come up with a home cooked way to better the century of research, trial and error, and money poured into that research is pretty much futile.

The idea of home reloading is to produce FRESH, ACCURATE ammo for your specific firearms.

Having said that,
The research can work in your favor.
Desiccant packs, sealed ammo cans, and something to remove your biggest enemy, oxygen, from your stored ammo will benifit you greatly.

Plastic sealed 'Battle Packs' last for decades, as whitnesses by the surplus market, 30 year old ammo that fires and is fairly accurate,
Cans that stayed sealed produce the same results.

I can't recommend the corrosion inhibiting paper that things like roller bearings come in, or the brown tube that comes out of stored barrels to prevent corrosion.
That stuff lining your ammo can will have your ammo coming out 30 years down the road looking like the day it went in, just like it does raw metal bearings and everything else its used on. (Inexpensive also)

'Cold Soldered' isn't an accurate discription,
The Galvonic Reaction is responsible.
When two dis-similar metals are making contact, they produce a weak 'Battery',
What's actually happening is a metal plating, or transfer process between copper jacket & brass case.
Since oxygen is usually present, the plating isn't clean, oxygen produces corrosion during the plating process.

Remember, powder contains moisture & corrosives that can promote both the plating & corrosion process, no matter how 'Dry' you try to keep the completed ammo...

The powder it's self contains oxygen bearing components, that's why its labeled as an 'Oxydizer',
It will burn in the absence of external oxygen, meaning its 'Self Oxydizing', containing oxygen producing components...

There is no way to remove all the oxygen or moisture from common powders,
So the next step is to minimize damage as the ammo ages...
Self oxydizing also means the powder will break down over time as the oxygen attacks the very substances containing it...

Modern powders DESIGNED FOR STORAGE slow this process considerably,
But its a force of nature and will not be contained indefinantly...
That is the reason there is 'Surplus' ammo on the market, the stock has to be rotated, even if it takes decades to become unreliable for military use.

I suggest you take some tips from military storage,
Use only 'Polish' or 'Waxes' that DO NOT react with the powder/primer,
(No polish or wax at all removes the possible contamination hazards)
Dessicants to remove moisture,
Oxygen depleting or converting treated paper/cardboard to limit the potential for oxygen break down,
And a tightly sealed, container so oxygen/moisture can not migrate into the ammo while stored.

Temperature control will go a long way towards this goal.
Sealed containers will try to 'Breathe' as temperature moves up & down,
Expelling your carefully prepared atmosphere as it heats up,
And drawing in oxygen/moisture laden air that will condense as temperature falls.
Average 'Plastics' do NOT preclude migration of moisture into the interior, even when glued or heat sealed.
The barrier must be specifically designed to preclude moisture migration,
Like with the 'Metalized Plastics' or the super dense plastics that 'Battle Packs' are stored in.

Some countries solder the containers shut, you have to cut into the cases to get at the ammo,
Some use metal cans, specifically prepared to stop oxygen/moisture migration, like the USA does.
That cardboard in the sides/bottom of the can isn't your average cardboard,
And the cans are flooded with inert gasses to help remove moisture/oxygen before they are sealed.
Doing the same will help keep your ammo healthy & viable much longer.
 
Metal God

There are many of us her that have reloads that are more then 20 years old. I do myself. I shot some 30-06 and .44 magnum that I reloaded 20 plus year ago and it was all fine. It just aint that big a deal as long as you clean your cases well even just storing on a shelf in your home can work just fine.
 
Just FWIW, powder manufacturers don't actually set out to make canister grade powder. They make powder of a certain type. Then, if it is a type that is sold as canister grade for reloaders, they test each lot. If one lot meets the specs for that type's canister grade, it is packed up in the familiar cans. If a batch doesn't meet the specs for canister grade, it is used for factory ammo, and the ammo maker runs his own tests to get a load that gives the velocity/pressure his specs call for.

One serious problem for powder makers is failure to remove the acid which is produced as part of the manufacturing process. That almost never occurs in commercial production, but it does happen in hurried wartime production, which is why some old GI ammo cases seem to split from the inside. The ammo is stored in boxes or belts with the cases lying horizontal. The acid eats at the case over the years until, when the round is fired, the case gives way in what looks like a seam running down the fired case.

Jim
 
There's some pretty good stuff here .

Not sure why but never thought to put the powder lot# on the index card stating what the load is for the ammo I put up for storage . I think that alone is a good enough reason to shoot the cheap stuff and pull the good projectiles and reuse the other components pretty quick .

Keeping the components separate but ready to load seems like the safest most time and cost effective way to do it . I do have a Lee breech lock hand press that is quite portable http://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-hand-press.html .

Thanks Jeephammer that is good info to keep in mind . Have you ever heard of throwing a lit match into the ammo can then closing the lid :eek:. This it to remove the oxygen left in the can ?

I'll likely still keep some ammo loaded long term but may cycle through it more/sooner then I intended before .

Hartcreek :

Do you remember how you cleaned the cases that were loaded for 20 years ?
 
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I'm not 100% sure of your point but I'll guess and say you do think a very clean case is important. I have to assume those 600 cartridges were factory new and some how/reason they left case lube on the inside.
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I do not know of a manufacturer that believes lubing the case before firing is a good ideal. I believe all manufacturers remove lube after forming, and then there is annealing. It would take some good stuff to stay on the case during annealing. It would require a miracle lube to survive 700°, so; I would not assume the lube was left by the manufacturer. The ammo was loaded in 1971 and 1972.

We will have to go back to the part where I am not in mortal combat with reloading. I prep cases, I sort cases and then I put them away. When it comes time to load the cases I start with tumbling; meaning? I do not have a concern with what happens with the case when stored; most of the work is done before storing. All that is necessary but not required is to tumble to take off the dull appearance.

And then there is the lube inside of the case? With powder? Lube on the outside of the case is like a magnet to dirt. All I want between the case and chamber is air. I do not want a lot of air and the air I do have between the chamber and case has to be clean air. I know; the case is embeddable, imbedded dirt grit and grime can dull the finish inside of my dies.

When I clean my dies with a white towel on a dowel the towel is always removed with black stuff. Does it matter? Matter has weight and takes up space; again, all I want between my case and chamber is air, clean air.

F. Guffey
 
One serious problem for powder makers is failure to remove the acid which is produced as part of the manufacturing process. That almost never occurs in commercial production, but it does happen in hurried wartime production, which is why some old GI ammo cases seem to split from the inside. The ammo is stored in boxes or belts with the cases lying horizontal. The acid eats at the case over the years until, when the round is fired, the case gives way in what looks like a seam running down the fired case.
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Life is not fair, I have cans of pull down bullets, some are tracers, some are AP. The powder is long gone and shot up without a problem. The cases were used to burn the powder. Again, life is not fair, seems if what you claim is true I would have found cases that were eat up from the inside. I have found cases that were eat up from the inside because of bad habits practiced by reloaders.

F. Guffey
 
Guffey said:
In the last year I have pulled down 600 + belted magnum cases stored in fiber ammo boxes. and close to 10% would have caused problems
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Where did the lube come from . Were these your reloads and you left it in there or were they factory loads and the factory left lube in there ?

Guffey said:
I believe all manufacturers remove lube after forming,
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Then where did it come from in all those belted magnums you pulled ?

Guffey said:
I do not know of a manufacturer that believes lubing the case before firing is a good ideal
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I did not ask about that but I do agree

Guffey said:
When it comes time to load the cases I start with tumbling; meaning? I do not have a concern with what happens with the case when stored; most of the work is done before storing. All that is necessary but not required is to tumble to take off the dull appearance.
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I'm speaking more to the insides of the cases . I don't remember where but I read somewhere that the burnt residue inside fired cases is not good to interact with fresh powder in long term storage . Some kind of bad interaction between the burnt powder and new powder . It may have even been powder/powders specific . unfortunately I don't remember the specifics , that was just my take away from it . It was a few years ago I read that and don't remember where so I can provide a link .
 
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jeephammer said:
'Cold Soldered' isn't an accurate discription,
The Galvonic Reaction is responsible.
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You are correct that "cold soldering" is not a technically accurate description. It is just a common euphemism to broadly cover several different forms of bullet bonding to case necks. But it is not necessarily galvanic in nature. That's just one of three mechanisms I am aware of.

One of the others is pressure welding. This is where two surfaces containing similar atoms (in this case copper and zinc are both in brass and gilding metal) get into such intimate contact that the atoms are no longer clearly part of one or the other piece of material. I read a physicist describing it as some atoms no longer "knowing" which of the two pieces of material they actually belong to. That's how intentional pressure welding works, but it can happen in some areas of a neck, especially when the bullets and inside of the neck are both highly polished and smooth surfaces that let a significant number of atoms get close to each other under compression from the neck.

Galvanic reactions can occur, but require conductive ions be present. Deteriorating powder can certainly supply these. If you have bullets coated with cheap moly that isn't the high grade acid-neutralized non-galvanic grade like NECO sells, then you can get sulfurous acid radicals in the presence of moisture that will cause it. It's the same thing that has been reported as causing corrosion in barrels that use moly-coated bullets; cheap moly.

There is also cross-oxidation that will stick metals together if they have some of the same atoms in them. The bonding to oxygen by copper and zinc can be shared across the material boundaries when two pieces are close together. That's part of why getting oxygen out of ammo storage cases can be helpful. The simplest thing is to get some welder's argon in a tank and blow it in. It is heavier than air, so is can settle there. But blow it it in through a cotton ball or other filter to capture any pump oil traces in it.

What is interesting is how consistently occurring these phenomena are. If you read through the SAAMI pressure standards, you find that the MAP (maximum average pressure) number we usually refer to as maximum, actually only applies to the peak average of newly loaded ammo. The have another number called the MPSM (maximum probable sample mean) that is higher and that allows for the effect of increased start pressure on average peak pressure readings of samples as the ammunition ages. In 308 Winchester, for example, its about 4,000 psi higher than the MAP for this cartridge, but is still considered safe.
 
Militaries everywhere store ammo for years and years and years without doing anything at all to ammo fresh from the factory. Nothing "soldered" to anything. Oldest I had issued at the time was 44 year old DA .303 Brit ball. Cases were not sealed in any way either. Fabulous stuff.
It's all about how and where you store empties or loaded ammo.
Brass is going to oxidize(unshiney brass is oxidized. No big deal. Green tinged is the copper coming out of the alloy. Not good. Usually means it got wet somehow.) if it's not stored in a cool, dry place no matter how clean it starts out.
If you really think you need to store ammo/brass for long periods and don't have a cool dry place, buy a vacuum sealer.
 
I have tumbled brass and put it in old tight sealing butter containers for years out in unheated sheds. Looks like new when ever I open one. I do wear cotton gloves when packing the brass.
 
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