When shooting for accuracy, some neck size ( fire form ) their cases. I full size with no more then .001 headspace. Measured from base to datum line & checked in chamber, has a certain feel. Now when seating a bullet to an exact measurement from base to ogive, making every round the same exact size.How could neck sizing be more accurate, when measured from base to ogive. Only sizing the neck, base to datum line couldn't be he same, changing the distance from base to ogive.
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How accurate is neck sizing
- Thread starter cw308
- Start date
My understanding is that the claim of neck sizing is the brass will have a longer life as it is worked less. I never really saw much difference and eventually the case will need full length resizing anyway.
Like you I typically bump my shoulder back a few thousandths and load them. Some guys do swear by the Collet Neck Sizer Dies which I have yet to try.
Just My Take....
Ron
Like you I typically bump my shoulder back a few thousandths and load them. Some guys do swear by the Collet Neck Sizer Dies which I have yet to try.
Just My Take....
Ron
603Country
New member
I use the Lee Collet neck dies for my 223. My loads are not near max and I can load them 3 or 4 times before I notice them getting snug in the chamber. Then I FL size and bump the shoulder back enough to allow easy chambering. I just loaded up 400 rounds and things go a lot faster with the Collet die. No lube required, and that alone makes using the collet die a good idea.
If you reload a bunch of rounds with the collet die and THEN find that the loaded rounds are too snug when chambered, buy and use a Redding Body Die on the loaded rounds. Works great, and I've had to do that a few times.
If you reload a bunch of rounds with the collet die and THEN find that the loaded rounds are too snug when chambered, buy and use a Redding Body Die on the loaded rounds. Works great, and I've had to do that a few times.
Most of my friends I shoot with neck size, I use to neck size also. When checking measurement on 10 neck sized & 10 full sized cases, neck sized measurements will not be the same. They shoot tight groups, but may shoot tighter if all measurements were the same.
I like everything about shooting, reloading & sharing information on the subject. From equipment, cases , powders, bullets & how to put them together. I shoot once a week but can talk about it every day. Thanks or getting back. Chris
Could also open up a bag of worms & open a post on who cleans with JB Compound & how often , so be nice.
I like everything about shooting, reloading & sharing information on the subject. From equipment, cases , powders, bullets & how to put them together. I shoot once a week but can talk about it every day. Thanks or getting back. Chris
Could also open up a bag of worms & open a post on who cleans with JB Compound & how often , so be nice.
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603Country
New member
Sometimes I resize with a Fl die, with the desired shoulder setback, and sometimes I just use the Lee Collet die. I do believe that I get slightly better accuracy with the Lee die. If I was shooting hot max loads, I probably would not use the Lee Collet die.
If you have not tried the Lee Collet Die, buy one and try it. Might surprise you.
If you have not tried the Lee Collet Die, buy one and try it. Might surprise you.
It is easy if the brass is only getting used in one gun:
a) I can get extremely accurate ammo and long brass life with partial neck sizing with an up adjusted full length die.
b) I can get extremely accurate ammo and long brass life with Lee collet neck sizing.
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It is harder with more than one gun using the ammo:
a) I can get extremely accurate ammo with Forster Full Length dies with the necks honed out at the Forster factory and move back the shoulder enough to fit and any of the rifles.
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in 6mmBR and 223, I have custom reamers with no turn necks. This helps accuracy and brass life.
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I would encourage you to do a controlled experiment with 25 pieces of brass dedicated to a sizer die, a process of sizing, and the same rifle. Shoot over and over until the brass wears out or is so long it needs trimming. Keep track of accuracy and/or eccentricity runout.
Change the die or the die adjustment or some part of the process and repeat.
I did this experiment, and the Lee Collet neck die is in a class by itself.
It sure surprised me.
a) I can get extremely accurate ammo and long brass life with partial neck sizing with an up adjusted full length die.
b) I can get extremely accurate ammo and long brass life with Lee collet neck sizing.
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It is harder with more than one gun using the ammo:
a) I can get extremely accurate ammo with Forster Full Length dies with the necks honed out at the Forster factory and move back the shoulder enough to fit and any of the rifles.
----------------------------------------
in 6mmBR and 223, I have custom reamers with no turn necks. This helps accuracy and brass life.
--------------------------
I would encourage you to do a controlled experiment with 25 pieces of brass dedicated to a sizer die, a process of sizing, and the same rifle. Shoot over and over until the brass wears out or is so long it needs trimming. Keep track of accuracy and/or eccentricity runout.
Change the die or the die adjustment or some part of the process and repeat.
I did this experiment, and the Lee Collet neck die is in a class by itself.
It sure surprised me.
I have used Lee Collet dies and a variety of FL size dies. I have been able to produce ammo just as accurate with a properly set up FL sizing die as I have been able to with a Collet die. I will say that ammo produced from a collet die is VERY accurate... 1/2moa ammo being fairly easy to obtain even for a new reloader.
In my opinion, the touted benefits of neck sizing only most benefits new reloaders who may not fully understand the concept of adjusting a FL die to most closely match the headspace in their rifle. A Neck sizing die does this automatically by following very simple instructions given with the die. You need not worry about screwing the die in .003" too far for optimum accuracy because it's not going to push the neck back any... it's very forgiving. It's my opinion that Lee Precision shares a good bit of the responsibility for neck sizing's popularity. They are budget equipment, hence a lot of new reloaders will start out buying a Lee kit. Many will also buy the Lee Modern Reloading manual, which raves about how "THE MOST" accurate ammo can be made with their neck-sizing collet die. I believe Lee Precision is such a proponent of Neck sizing because it is very easy to explain die setup in writing to a novice. It is not easy to explain optimum FL die adjustment in writing to a novice. I don't disagree that very accurate ammo can be made with a collet die, by a novice, in just a few workup loads. There are some caveats though. You will need to FL size eventually anyway, usually after 2-3 firings depending on your brass and the stoutness of your load. You can achieve ammo that is just as accurate (if not more so) with proper use of a quality FL die, but there is a steeper learning curve. I also don't think you add significant brass life with a collet die vs. a FL die where the shoulder bump is set up to closely match headspace.
I'm not slamming Lee, I think they make good equipment for the money. I still have and use my Lee Classic Turret that I started reloading on. I also use their dies almost exclusively for pistol ammo as I can produce accurate enough ammo and they are inexpensive. In the rare case that I neck-size these days, I will use a Lee Collet die. I have graduated to other equipment however. I like Redding dies to make very accurate rifle loads on.
In my opinion, the touted benefits of neck sizing only most benefits new reloaders who may not fully understand the concept of adjusting a FL die to most closely match the headspace in their rifle. A Neck sizing die does this automatically by following very simple instructions given with the die. You need not worry about screwing the die in .003" too far for optimum accuracy because it's not going to push the neck back any... it's very forgiving. It's my opinion that Lee Precision shares a good bit of the responsibility for neck sizing's popularity. They are budget equipment, hence a lot of new reloaders will start out buying a Lee kit. Many will also buy the Lee Modern Reloading manual, which raves about how "THE MOST" accurate ammo can be made with their neck-sizing collet die. I believe Lee Precision is such a proponent of Neck sizing because it is very easy to explain die setup in writing to a novice. It is not easy to explain optimum FL die adjustment in writing to a novice. I don't disagree that very accurate ammo can be made with a collet die, by a novice, in just a few workup loads. There are some caveats though. You will need to FL size eventually anyway, usually after 2-3 firings depending on your brass and the stoutness of your load. You can achieve ammo that is just as accurate (if not more so) with proper use of a quality FL die, but there is a steeper learning curve. I also don't think you add significant brass life with a collet die vs. a FL die where the shoulder bump is set up to closely match headspace.
I'm not slamming Lee, I think they make good equipment for the money. I still have and use my Lee Classic Turret that I started reloading on. I also use their dies almost exclusively for pistol ammo as I can produce accurate enough ammo and they are inexpensive. In the rare case that I neck-size these days, I will use a Lee Collet die. I have graduated to other equipment however. I like Redding dies to make very accurate rifle loads on.
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Remington 700 308cal. is the rifle I shoot bench rest & reload for. My loads are low to midrange, Ranges in my area are 200 max. My zero is 200 & that's the only distance I shoot. Groups average 1/2" off a rear bag & Harris Bi-Pod set up, benches are solid,( concrete ) with good roof blocking sun and rain. Very nice range 45 miles away, wish it were closer. Hear a lot of good things about the Lee Collet Neck Die. Read an article on tight chambering an galling the bolts locking lugs that started me full sizing, I get 25 reloads out of my ADI or FC brass. Average range day 30 rounds, 10 rounds per group in two hours. Cease fire is a good Time to bs with my friends. 7 shooting friends 2 F/L size 6 N/S 1 uses store bought. Everyone shoots tight groups. Comes down to whatever works best for you. Makes good conversation.
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How could neck sizing be more accurate,
I determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I can fire a case to determine the effect the chamber had on the case when fired, I form first then fire. Reloading is made simpler by the fact my cases do not have head space. My cases have a length from the shoulder to the case head, I use the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head to off set the length of the chamber.
F. Guffey
603Country
New member
Like I said earlier, to me it matters which resizing die I use with which caliber. I shoot hot loads in my 220 and my 270, and FL size for a small shoulder setback. In the 260, which is extremely accurate, I started out using some standard Hornady FL Dies and it shoots so well that I'm making no changes at all. And there is also a minor shoulder bump with that FL Die. But it's with the 223 that I get best use with the Collet Die. And I did comparative testing with that rifle. I used standard FL dies, A NK die, a Redding FL Type S Bushing Die, and the Collet Die. I got, and still get, best accuracy with the Collet Die. Second best accuracy was with the Redding FL Die, set for a small shoulder bump. Of course, the diff in accuracy isn't huge, and a complicating factor in the testing I did was the shooting ability of the tester (me).
One interesting thing about the Collet Die, that nobody ever mentions, is that the Collet Die does not care what the case neck wall thickness is. Thick wall or thin, the brass gets sized around a mandrel. Minimum working of the brass. That has to be a benefit to case life. Further, from seating all the bullets for the last few days, I absolutely believe that seating effort (and likely, the bullet release when fired) is more even and consistent with the Collet Die. That would lead to better accuracy. That said, I will again say that I think the collet die works best for me when shooting less than max hot loads - loads where I don't have to FL resize to get the brass to chamber easily.
One interesting thing about the Collet Die, that nobody ever mentions, is that the Collet Die does not care what the case neck wall thickness is. Thick wall or thin, the brass gets sized around a mandrel. Minimum working of the brass. That has to be a benefit to case life. Further, from seating all the bullets for the last few days, I absolutely believe that seating effort (and likely, the bullet release when fired) is more even and consistent with the Collet Die. That would lead to better accuracy. That said, I will again say that I think the collet die works best for me when shooting less than max hot loads - loads where I don't have to FL resize to get the brass to chamber easily.
My understanding is that the claim of neck sizing is the brass will have a longer life as it is worked less. I never really saw much difference and eventually the case will need full length resizing anyway.
Like you I typically bump my shoulder back a few thousandths and load them. Some guys do swear by the Collet Neck Sizer Dies which I have yet to try.
The case will eventually need full length sizing anyway, normally that statement is completed with “and start over”’ and I wonder how that is possible? The case has been fired 5 times, a case that has been fired 5 has increased in its ability to resist sizing that make it impossible to start over. And then there is that thing about bench resters, years ago it is claimed they full length size overtime, those making the claim that is what all reloaders should do; and of course, I disagree.
I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, I do not return the case to minimum length, I want to off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case when measured from the shoulder of the case to the case head.
There is more to neck sizing than long case life. I have neck sizing dies, I do not use them but I have them JIC (just in case).
Could also open up a bag of worms & open a post on who cleans with JB Compound & how often, so be nice.
CW308, If you want to talk about neck sizing and other options allow me to call you.
F. Guffey
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5whisket, is on the same page with me. Tried RCBS neck & full length dies, Redding S Type bushing dies neck & full, runout was .003 on the average with Redding bushing dies. I don't neck turn my brass. Found my old RCBS F/L die with the Redding competition shell holder set of 5 worked best for me, gave me no more then then .001 runout, l also use the expander ball , hardly any drag. I shoot 30 rounds per range trip. I'll resize those 30 cases, when one showed any sign of a problem, l will dump all 30, start with another set of 30. Average 25 reloads.
F. Guffey, would be great to speak to you on reloading & shooting. Reading your post's you probably forgotten more info then I know. Problem would be my wife would get POed at me tieing up the phone line. Your posts have been very helpfull. You seem to have equipment that can make gages, shave dies & shell holders. Are you a gunsmith.
I read up on everything, once its posted on something l never heard of. My newest thing was removing the ejector on my Remington700, causing side pressure on a chambered case. What's your feeling. Only plus l see is, case layes on the follower makes it easier to get your brass
F. Guffey, would be great to speak to you on reloading & shooting. Reading your post's you probably forgotten more info then I know. Problem would be my wife would get POed at me tieing up the phone line. Your posts have been very helpfull. You seem to have equipment that can make gages, shave dies & shell holders. Are you a gunsmith.
I read up on everything, once its posted on something l never heard of. My newest thing was removing the ejector on my Remington700, causing side pressure on a chambered case. What's your feeling. Only plus l see is, case layes on the follower makes it easier to get your brass
603Country
One interesting thing about the Collet Die, that nobody ever mentions, is that the Collet Die does not care what the case neck wall thickness is.
I have always thought benchrest internet reloading advice given to guys who just want to shoot a deer or a ground squirrel is often misguided.
The benchrest guys turn their necks and so have consistent low neck thickness runout. They don't need a collet neck die.
Hunters using brass that the necks have not be turned can benefit from the collet neck die.
603Country
New member
Clark, I agree with you. A hunter doesn't need to get too fancy. That said, some mostly hunting folks like me are after accuracy, or all of it they can get. For a time I used a Redding Type S FL Bushing Die, and turned necks and fully prepped each and every case. But accuracy didn't get noticeably better, and this is an expensively tuned rifle. Then I dragged out all my 223 dies and a bunch of new brass with turned necks. I shot 10 shot groups from brass that was resized with the bushing die, a standard NK die, a standard FL die and a Lee Collet Die. I wanted to once and for all decided what die would maximize accuracy with my rifle. The Collet Die gave me the best groups, slightly better than the Redding Bushing Die. Neck Die groups were the worst, by a small amount. The standard FL die was about as good as the bushing die. So...what to use was the next question. I just flat didn't want to turn necks any more, particularly if I could get best accuracy with the Collet Die, so I retired the Redding Bushing Die. I started buying all Lapua 223 brass and using the Collet Die, and since my loads aren't at all hot, I don't need to bump the shoulder too often. When I need to FL size the case, I use the standard FL die, then back to the collet die till it's time for the FL die again. All I use the Redding Bushing Die for now is to take the innards out and use it as a Body Die.
But that's just what I'm doing, and a different rifle and shooter may not feel the same. And note that I earlier said that I don't use Collet Dies for the 270, 220, or 260. Those are resized with a std FL die set for a small shoulder bump. The 260 is my most accurate rifle, with the 220 and 223 tied for second.
But that's just what I'm doing, and a different rifle and shooter may not feel the same. And note that I earlier said that I don't use Collet Dies for the 270, 220, or 260. Those are resized with a std FL die set for a small shoulder bump. The 260 is my most accurate rifle, with the 220 and 223 tied for second.
603Country
New member
Old Roper, funny that you should ask. When I had the rifle rebarrelled, the gunsmith gave me a tight match chamber. I had not asked for that. It was so tight that brand new Lapua brass, with a seated bullet, wouldn't chamber. Took me a while to figure that out, and when I did I had to get serious about turning necks on a lot of brass. That got old fast, so I finally drove the gun back to him and had the chamber opened up a bit. Still pretty tight chamber though. Shoots great though.
So, it did need (even demand) neck turning, but no longer does. This is one of those rifles, now, that will never sell for what has been spent on it. Oh, well. I do like the rifle.
So, it did need (even demand) neck turning, but no longer does. This is one of those rifles, now, that will never sell for what has been spent on it. Oh, well. I do like the rifle.
603Country, that's pretty big mistake on gunsmith part and not sure I'd be as forgiving on that chamber. My first HBR rifle was tight neck 308 and that thing shot bug hole groups and gunsmith was C. Hammond.
He's retired now but little write up on him.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/clarence-hammonds.3777135/
He's retired now but little write up on him.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/clarence-hammonds.3777135/
I have collet dies but don't use them . Reason being is the 308 die gives me VERY little bullet hold . I can easily press the nose of the bull into the bench pushing the bullet into the case . My 223 die has better bullet hold but I only have auto loader in 223 and the fact my 308 die does not hold the bullet tight gives me pause to use the 223 die . I'll use them some day .
As for a couple of you saying you only use the collet die with light to moderate loads . Why is that ? Is it to reduce recoil because you guy have the same very light bullet hold and don't want bullet set back ?
As for a couple of you saying you only use the collet die with light to moderate loads . Why is that ? Is it to reduce recoil because you guy have the same very light bullet hold and don't want bullet set back ?
603Country
New member
Dang, Metal. I just typed a long answer and the internet connection went down. Lawd...I hate that.
I get increased bullet hold by sizing each case twice with the collet die. Size it, turn the case 90 degrees and resize. Seems to be all the hold that I need.
As for your question on why the light loads, the reason (for me anyway) is more that my mid load (neither hot nor cold) doesn't require me to resize the case very often with a FL die. My other calibers are loaded pretty warm and would require the FL die use fairly often. And, I get great accuracy with the FL dies I use with those rifles. And they don't get shot that much. With my 223, it gets shot a bunch by the wife's lady friends, the grandkids, and by me, so I reload for it a lot. The Collet Die is much faster to use (no lube to add and remove) and gives me better accuracy, and I can avoid FL sizing for 4 or 5 reloads. If I loaded the 223 at max, I'd probably go back to FL sizing for it.
My 260 isn't loaded that hot, so I could use the collet die for it, but the darn thing is a super shooter now. No way I could get a serious improvement with use of the collet die.
I think the Lee Collet Die is a good thing to have under certain reload conditions. And, there are some guys that use a Redding Body Die to size the case body and then use the Collet Die to size the neck. They claim great accuracy, but that's an added step in the resizing and I don't need an extra step.
I get increased bullet hold by sizing each case twice with the collet die. Size it, turn the case 90 degrees and resize. Seems to be all the hold that I need.
As for your question on why the light loads, the reason (for me anyway) is more that my mid load (neither hot nor cold) doesn't require me to resize the case very often with a FL die. My other calibers are loaded pretty warm and would require the FL die use fairly often. And, I get great accuracy with the FL dies I use with those rifles. And they don't get shot that much. With my 223, it gets shot a bunch by the wife's lady friends, the grandkids, and by me, so I reload for it a lot. The Collet Die is much faster to use (no lube to add and remove) and gives me better accuracy, and I can avoid FL sizing for 4 or 5 reloads. If I loaded the 223 at max, I'd probably go back to FL sizing for it.
My 260 isn't loaded that hot, so I could use the collet die for it, but the darn thing is a super shooter now. No way I could get a serious improvement with use of the collet die.
I think the Lee Collet Die is a good thing to have under certain reload conditions. And, there are some guys that use a Redding Body Die to size the case body and then use the Collet Die to size the neck. They claim great accuracy, but that's an added step in the resizing and I don't need an extra step.