Hornady Method: Revolver 45 Colt

Nathan

New member
Well, here it is. I picked a below max load for my 265gr cast bullets in Starline brass under a reasonable load of H110. Instead of loading 5 groups of 5 charge weights. I just loaded one as light as I thought I could be ok with the velocity.

After sight in, I loaded up 18 rounds and shot them. In the end, I hit 1125fps and shot a 2.98” 20 shot group.

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I’m basically good with what I see here. I feel like what it is telling me is to work on grip consistency and reshoot after I build some experience with this load. While the sd isn’t great, this is a 5.5” revolver…..probably ok to 50 yards.

Your thoughts? Am I done in 20 rounds?
 
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I had measured the groups wrong….heck…that made it 2.98” 20 shot group!

Shooting off sandbags, seated on a bench. Done is not done. Done means make a bunch and shoot it better!

I thought in the last Hornady post they were going to make load development 1000’s of rounds. Seems like 20 and done!
 
Your ES and SD are terrible. If you're going to use moderate loads, go Tier2 with 10gr of Unique or 9gr of Power Pistol. H110 likes full case and hard bullet pulls to get the best performance. I get 1.5" at 25 with a 285gr SWC
 
In "ancient times" an accurate revolver and SHOOTER would shoot 2-2.5" groups at 25yds.

10gr of Unique pushes a 250gr from my 7.5" Blackhawk to just a hair under 1100fps, +/- Heavier slugs & shorter barrels will be a bit slower.

H110 is not my favorite powder for the .45 Colt, but all I shoot from mine are 250gr SWC slugs. Never found any point to anything heavier than that.
 
If you are a bull's-eye target shooter, you want more precision. A 25-yard slow fire 10-ring is 1.51 inches, a number chosen so a 38 cal pistol has to shoot about 1⅞" inches, gun and shooter errors combined, in order to get a clean score. The X-ring is 0.67", so that same shooter and gun would have to shoot about 1" at 25-yards to clean the X-ring. So figure that target guns try to be built to shoot 1" or better off a rest at 25-yards. Not all succeed, obviously, but it is possible.

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If you are a bull's-eye target shooter, you want more precision. A 25-yard slow fire 10-ring is 1.51 inches, a number chosen so a 38 cal pistol has to shoot about 1⅞" inches, gun and shooter errors combined, in order to get a clean score. The X-ring is 0.67", so that same shooter and gun would have to shoot about 1" at 25-yards to clean the X-ring. So figure that target guns try to be built to shoot 1" or better off a rest at 25-yards. Not all succeed, obviously, but it is possible.
I'm trying to get some idea of whether or not the same range of SD and ED for a revolver is realistically achievable for what you can get with a rifle--or even if it makes as much difference at close range.
 
Looked at one way, revolvers are actually 6 guns using one common barrel. OK, not exactly, but in a way, and the really amazing thing is how well they work considering its six separate chambers moving into, and out of alignment with the barrel.

If you think your ES and SD is due to the revolver, then shoot your load out of something that isn't a revolver. That should give you a pretty good indication if its the load, or the gun creating the results you got.

Get a Contender in .45 Colt (NOT .45Colt/.410) or use one of the .45 Colt carbines you can get these days, shoot your load and see what changes. I'm pretty sure something will. :D
 
GeauxTide said:
Your ES and SD are terrible. If you're going to use moderate loads, go Tier2 with 10gr of Unique or 9gr of Power Pistol. H110 likes full case and hard bullet pulls to get the best performance. I get 1.5" at 25 with a 285gr SWC

44 amp said:
In "ancient times" an accurate revolver and SHOOTER would shoot 2-2.5" groups at 25yds.

As you guys tell me how bad these results are, comparing to 18 shot groups? There are literally 2 shots making this bigger than 2”. I’ll bet most 5 shot groups are 1.5”.

Same with the Sd. This is a 100 yd MAX gun. Is Sd really important?

Drop at 100 yds = -5
-3 Sd = -7; +3 Sd = -3

So 100 yd dispersion is likely 15” …11” from the group projection +4” of Sd dispersion. Probably just need to limit myself to 75 yards until I or the load shoot better. I’m ok with that. I’ll bet I can put a number of these on 12” 100 yd steel!

I see Sd will effect group size, possibly beyond minute of deer, but I also, see that 100 yards is way beyond my 45 Colt
 
Hang on a sec. If I am understanding correctly, your saying Hornady has a method in which, you pick a load under max, in the velocity range you are looking for, and you just load and shoot? I cannot say as I have ever hear anyone recommend you just pick a load and shoot it. I have always been told to work a load up from start. Every gun is an individual, you might not get the velocity listed in the manual and possible different pressures. Especially if you barrel length is different from what ls listed in the manual. Also using different brass and or primers can change things. I cant say is it sounds like a good idea to me.

Hornady also just did a podcast on sample sizes. Synopsis, you should fire 20rnds to get good solid reliable data for both chronograph data and accuracy. heres the podcast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yZyXwy40JM Granted that is coming from a bullet/ammo maker. But the data they showed seems pretty solid.
 
There are literally 2 shots making this bigger than 2”

The more shots in a group, the greater the statical average will be, simply because the more shots the greater the odds of more "fliers" opening up the group size.

Does this matter?

There is a lot of discussion about how many shots should be considered a group, or the "right" group size. Numbers say the more data points the more accurate it is, and this matters to many people.

Doesn't matter so much, to me. I've always figured the number of shots in a group should be the number of rounds the gun holds, or less if the gun holds a lot. 5rnds is some people's standard, others 10, others more. All depends on what matters to you.

For revolvers, I go with six rounds (all my revolvers hold 6) and that's a group. TO me an 18shot group is not a group, its 3 groups on top of each other, and since there is always some amount of error, three "2 inch" groups, shot on top of each other COULD give you a total group size of 2, 3, 4, or even 6 inches. Does that tell you how accurate your load is? I don't see that. Tells you something about your shooting but not so much about your ammo's capability.

Another point to consider, about group size, bigger bullets can all be overlapping holes and still measure more than smaller ones.

5 .45caliber slugs can make one ragged rip and still be a 2.5" group.

Does that matter to you?
This is a 100 yd MAX gun. Is Sd really important?

Drop at 100 yds = -5
-3 Sd = -7; +3 Sd = -3

So 100 yd dispersion is likely 15” …11” from the group projection +4” of Sd dispersion. Probably just need to limit myself to 75 yards until I or the load shoot better. I’m ok with that. I’ll bet I can put a number of these on 12” 100 yd steel!

I see Sd will effect group size, possibly beyond minute of deer, but I also, see that 100 yards is way beyond my 45 Colt

Different shooters, guns and loads will have difference capabilities. Speaking strictly about hitting a steel target (and not a game animal) in my younger days before I got old, weak, and nearly blind, I could regularly ring the 200yd gong on the range shooting my 7.5" .45 Colt Blackhawk, off hand, one handed, and 5 out of six on a bad day. OF course I had a bit of practice, having spent nearly 30 years doing just that for recreation, shooting one bullet and one load, and learning exactly how to hold to do it. And I could do it with other guns as well, after a few sighter shots.

I never really bothered with group sizes and completely ignored SD and ES though I did chrono the load one time and it was avg 1070fps. Since I could hit what I wanted to hit at the range I wanted to hit it, all the rest didn't matter much or any, to me.

Numbers don't lie, they say, but to me they aren't the be all end all and its results down range that matter most to me. A handful of fps variation hardly seems to matter if you hit your intended target where you mean to hit it.

I'm rather old fashioned I guess...:D
 
Looks ok to me :) for that many shots. Usually one shoots 5 shot groups for a 'measurement' for handguns. Don't know about rifle though I see bragging about 3 shot groups abound.

I like to shoot for an ES less than 50fps for 15 shots. Does it matter? I know I feel better when consistency is better. The 25Y or less shooters will probably never notice, but..... BTW, you'll find SD is usually close to 1/3 of the ES. So I always pay more attention to ES.

Over 100fps ES for 15 shots, I feel something is 'wrong'. Either the powder isn't reaching its potential (like under loading a slow powder) or could be old cases where neck tension is not consistent, crimp problem, powder dump not consistent, not right primer for powder, etc. Something is wrong or it just not going to work for the cartridge combination... or checking your shot data and find one flyer causing the large spread out of 15 shots. Throw it out and recompute your ES.
 
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Gotta reiterate what 44 AMP said. It would seem to me the more shots you use to determine a "group", the more you go from checking a load to how well you (or your gun) shoot after so many rounds. Especially with a pistol.

If really wanting to minutely check accuracy with a revolver, consider marking the cylinders (non permanently) and only use that chamber repeatedly with empty brass in the other chambers. And no, i didn't come up with that.

Have lived through the beginning of commonly used (miss-used some would say) es and std calculations. Now people have figured out the number of data points to make the calculations relevant, but that is not all that is going on. If you get to rapped up in std's, i hear they have shots to help ya get rid of em.

If that what ya like to do, all the more power to ya.
 
Gotta reiterate what 44 AMP said. It would seem to me the more shots you use to determine a "group", the more you go from checking a load to how well you (or your gun) shoot after so many rounds.

But this can be said for 2 shot groups. Or 3 shot groups, and so on.

More rounds means you get a better picture of the gun/ammo combination.

Enough with the, "I probably pulled those fliers." Fliers are only fliers if they are called and verified fliers. If they aren't called, then they should be considered part of the group that tests the gun/ammo accuracy. In other words, you can't just make up crap because you didn't like what some shots did to the group size.
 
Enough with the, "I probably pulled those fliers." Fliers are only fliers if they are called and verified fliers. If they aren't called, then they should be considered part of the group that tests the gun/ammo accuracy. In other words, you can't just make up crap because you didn't like what some shots did to the group size.

If this is said towards my comments, I totally agree. I own all rounds fired and they are part of the gun, load, shooters results.

That said, I have a lot of handgun shots under my belt. At 25 yards, based on groups from many guns, I doubt my ability to hold a 2” group. Something I see, but not often said is I have an equal likelihood with fliers to push a shot into the group as a flier outside the group.

I’m just saying, I’m going to load up a bunch and confirm again after practice!
 
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