Hornady 158 gr FTX FN Bullet performance?

G

GASSER53

Inactive
Greetings All:

I'm just getting into reloading so please excuse my lack of experience here. :)

I'm going to use my Marlin 1894CP for deer hunting and I've read that 158gr bullets perform well in that carbine. I selected Lil'Gun as the powder with Starline Brass, 158 gn Hornady FN/XTP. The load I'm looking at is 19.0 gr Lil'Gun, yielding 1971 fps and 1362 ft-lbs at the muzzle of a 20" rifle barrel. I'm sure that this is plenty of medicine for a whitetail but I have concerns about the projectile performance.

This bullet is designed to expand at pistol velocities and I'm concerned that instantaneous expansion may occur when hitting bone and not penetrate the chest cavity because this is a pistol projectile. I also have cast Rimrock gas checked 170 gr RNFP with a BHN of 22 which I'm thinking would not fragment at rifle velocities.

Rather than tell me to buy a 45-70 or .308 (which I have) or 30-30 (which I have), I'd really like to know if anyone has experience with the 158gr Hornady FN/XTP projectile when shot at rifle velocity at deer. Another approach may be to drop the powder to achieve 1500 fps and lower muzzle energy......my new chronograph is on the way from Brownells with a veteran's discount. :)

I really like the handiness of this little carbine outfitted with XS peep sights......I hunt in the thick stuff in Maine and shots are usually 50 - 60 yards and under. Should I relegate the 158 FN/XTP to plinking or do any of you consider it a humane hunting projectile?
 
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Welcome to TFL. We're happy to have you here.

This bullet is designed to expand at pistol velocities
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Are you sure?

I think we can safely say the HP XTP is. But the FN?? The expansion characteristics of the flat point profile should be far more modest than its HP counterpart. Thus, allowing for higher velocities. I suppose Hornady has the actual answer. But as far as I know, the FN is the way to go for your application and should perform well.
 
I've shot over fifty deer with the .357mag in handguns and another dozen or so with a couple of different rifles. One was a Marlin lever gun and the other two were a Low Wall in 357max and an Encore in 357max. Almost all of the deer were shot with Hornady 158g XTP bullets. A few were shot with 180g XTP's and a couple were shot with various Speer, Sierra, and cast bullets. I have yet to have one deer lost due to the caliber or the bullet. I have found that the XTP JHP expands very rapidly in deer if they are shot close up, and a lot less so at distances beyond fifty yards. The FN/XTP penetrates a bit deeper, but not by much. If you're just starting this venture, I'd suggest looking at the 180g XTP JHP instead of the lighter 158g bullet. The penetration is better and it still expands well out of a rifle. In all my guns it shoots as well at the 158g with a variety of different powders. I have kept a good number of bullets from deer shot with this caliber and I can tell you for a fact that the bullet doesn't "blow up" or do anything odd due to it being a handgun bullet. Not even the XTP JHP. The worst case experience, if you call it "worse case", is where I had a 158g XTP JHP expand to around .7" and stop on the off side hide from a shot at approx. 25 yards broadside. The biggest deer I ever shot with the handgun was a 188lb field dressed buck shot at 50 yards and he ran about twenty yards and piled up. That bullet stopped on the off side after quartering through him and penetrating both lungs. I wouldn't over think this regardless of what everyone tells you. If they offer advice to the contrary, ask them how many deer they actually shot with this caliber and bullet. FWIW, the only deer I ever lost with a handgun was shot with a full house 44mag and it got away. I simply made a bad shot and got a bad hit.....it happens sometimes. Good luck with your new gun. Out to 100 yards you're good to go.
 
I wouldn't over think this regardless of what everyone tells you. If they offer advice to the contrary, ask them how many deer they actually shot with this caliber and bullet
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Precisely - which is why I'm asking experienced guys like you!

I've shot over fifty deer with the .357mag in handguns and another dozen or so with a couple of different rifles. One was a Marlin lever gun and the other two were a Low Wall in 357max and an Encore in 357max. Almost all of the deer were shot with Hornady 158g XTP bullets
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Thanks for the in-depth response, steeped in experience......love it. Now, do you know what velocity you were cranking the bullets out of your rifle at? Were you shooting the factory ammo which lists it at 1250 fps/548 ft/lbs out of a 8"v barrel? If you were shooting factory ammo out of your rifle, I believe you'd gain 400 fps which translates to 1650 fps and nearly 1000 ft/lbs energy. For the 100 FN/XTP 158 gr I have in a box, that looks very promising to me. :)
 
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I think we can safely say the HP XTP is. But the FN??
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I'm not sure about that - that's why I chose the FN versus the HP. Does Hornady list recommended velocity ranges for their different bullets?
 
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Hodgdon shows a max of 18 gr of Lil' Gun with a 158 gr XTP, and they generally load .357 pretty stout. Where did you get the 19 gr load recipe from? I use the 158 gr XTP-FP in both the revolvers and carbines for deer. They tend to hold together well.

This bullet is designed to expand at pistol velocities
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Here is Hornady's chart of their XTP handgun bullets and the velocities they are designed for. Odds are, the XTP-FP will work just fine.

XTPVelocities.jpg
 
Not sure whether it's currently available on either their website or in the latest reloading manual, but Hornady has published velocity ranges for their handgun bullets in the past. Hornady's 9th edition reloading manual has recommended muzzle velocity ranges of 1150 to 1800 fps for the .357 158gr. FP XTP, and 900 to 1700 fps for the .357 180gr. HP XTP. And the website recommends those bullets for use on game up to 300 lbs.
 
I believe you'd gain 400 fps which translates to 1650 fps and nearly 1000 ft/lbs energy. For the 100 FN/XTP 158 gr I have in a box, that looks very promising to me.
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It is right around 400fps more in the rifle. With the 180g Hornady you can get around 1680fps in the rifle and the bullet performs very well at that velocity.
 
From my very limited experience, the 357 flat nose soft point simply mushes a bit at the lead tip and then just makes a hole (at handgun velocities).
 
Hornady makes two 158gr. XTPs. #35780 (FN/XTP) is designed to open at the higher velocities associated with carbines or long barrel single shots. #35750 is intended to function in handguns with normal revolver barrels.
 
The FN, as you saw, is a fully jacketed design, taking the metal all the way to the opening. The skiving, or slits in the jacket, goes very nearly to the bottom of the cavity.

What you can expect is that at lower velocities, if it does mushroom, it is going to stop right at the end of the skiving, or bottom of the cavity. At higher velocities, that will still be the goal, getting the thing to open up only as far as needed to create the same diameter mushroom as you can get at lower velocities.

I believe that their goal would be about .65" or so, and if the thing does expand as designed and the mushroom stops at the end of the serrations, at either higher or lower velocities, that is a big, big win.

They want you to believe that the bullet will perform well and expand to full diameter at 1,200 fps, and I'm not buying that. At full power, higher velocities, it will certainly perform.

If you compare the structure of any round made for 9 mm or other 1,000 fps capable rounds, they are almost dainty compared to that beefy layer of lea supported by a heavy jacket.

You may have one of the best deer carbine rounds available. Don't worry too much about it.
 
Gentlemen: I REALLY appreciate the input I've received - I have confidence that this projectile will perform humanely on deer within reasonable distances. Thanks for sharing your experience.
 
I am going to repeat what I asked in my first post......"Where did you get the 19 gr load recipe from? '

You state "Greetings All:

I'm just getting into reloading so please excuse my lack of experience here.", and then go on to say you are going to use a load that I cannot find in any of my reloading manuals, and a full grain over max from the manufacturer's manual. I'm just a tad curious as to iffin' it's a published load and iffin you really are going to gain anything by going that high. Sometimes, more is not always better. Also, because of the way a .357 lever bolt locks up at the rear, the action tends to flex when shot with extremely heavy loads. This tends to make the brass stretch and can lead to case head separation. I suggest only new or once fired brass for those types of loads.
 
I am going to repeat what I asked in my first post......"Where did you get the 19 gr load recipe from? '
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I hear you loud and clear. As a matter of fact, I've ordered the latest Hornady reloading manual to get more up-to-date loads. I'm not a fan of hot loads, but rather, accuracy with sufficient muzzle energy to do the job. I plan on starting lower and working my way up.

The load in question was garnered from the internet with the source listed as Rifle Issue - July, 2006. This is what I found:

"Notes: Marlin Model 1894 Cowboy Carbine with a 20-inch barrel used to test all loads. Starline cases and CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum primers used throughout. (Rifle Issue #226 - July, 2006)

145 Winchester Silvertip hollowpoint Hodgdon Lil'Gun 20.0gr, 2,052fps

158 Hornady FP/XTP Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 1,971fps

158 Hornady HP/XTP Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 1,987fps

158 Sierra Jacketed Hollow Cavity Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 1,957fps

158 Nosler hollowpoint Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 1,988fps

158 Speer Gold Dot hollowpoint Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 1,929fps

158 Speer jacketed softpoint Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 1,944fps

158 Speer jacketed hollowpoint Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 1,972fps

156 RCBS 38-150-SWC cast Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 2,018fps

160 Cast Performance flatnose plain base Hodgdon Lil'Gun 19.0gr, 2,021fps

165 Lyman GC 358156 cast Hodgdon Lil'Gun 18.0gr, 1,974fps

173 Lyman 358429 cast Hodgdon Lil'Gun 17.5gr, 1,906fps

180 Cast Performance wide flatnose Hodgdon Lil'Gun 15.0gr, 1,790fps"
 
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For whatever reason, Lil' Gun doesn't seem to be specified for the 357 Mag. in most reloading data books. The only place I've seen data recently is from Hodgdon.
 
"Hodgdon does not list Lil'Gun in the rifle loads. Could there be a reason?? " Likely they just haven't updated the 357 mag rifle section lately.

While I will not use it for pistols due to top strap erosion, in testing Lil-gun gave the best combination of accuracy/velocity in a 357 mag rifle and 170-180 bullets. Never tried it with 158 grainers.

"I am going to repeat what I asked in my first post......"Where did you get the 19 gr load recipe from? '" While hodgen manual only goes up to 18 grains, the pressure is listed as 25,800 cup. Other pressures listed with this bullet go up over 40,000 cup. Please feel free to deduce from this want ya will.

It is good advise to be careful with lil-gun, as velocity readings get funky at max loads. Sometimes actually dipping as the charge increases.
 
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Nice chart buck460XVR.

It also happens to confirm what I suspected with the terminal performance difference between the 158 XTP HP's and FP's.

NoSecondBest: Great idea with the 180 XTP's. I forgot about those.
 
zeke said:
"I am going to repeat what I asked in my first post......"Where did you get the 19 gr load recipe from? '" While hodgen manual only goes up to 18 grains, the pressure is listed as 25,800 cup. Other pressures listed with this bullet go up over 40,000 cup. Please feel free to deduce from this want ya will.

It is good advise to be careful with lil-gun, as velocity readings get funky at max loads. Sometimes actually dipping as the charge increases.
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I deduce that the manufacturer of said powder had their reason for stopping at 18 gr. Could be more powder does not equal any more velocity or actually decreases it. Thus, max charge. Could be they experienced sticky extraction above 18 gr. My .460 SAAMI pressure is 65,000 psi. I hold my reloads like most factory ammo to 56,000 or below because of ifficult extraction and short brass life otherwise. As I also said in my first post, Hodgdon tends to load .357 stout, I doubt if they were easin' up with Lil Gun for no reason. A decade or so ago when Lil Gun was popular among reloaders for handguns, there were extremely low pressures listed for it with most any caliber. Folks thought it a wonder powder, extreme velocities with very low pressure. More recent reloading manuals give pressure readings now, more in line with H110 and IMR4227......other than the one load shown by Hodgdon. Could be as you said, maybe they haven't updated their info yet. Heck, they still show H4227 listed and that was dropped years ago.

My concern was the OP got his info from exactly where he did......garnered from the internet without a published source to back it up. Something new reloaders do quite often. Back when I used Lil Gun, I loaded 17.5 gr under a 158 pill in .357. While I had decent accuracy, I also had sticky extraction. This told me it was too much for my gun. This is another reason I questioned the 19 gr load.
 
Hodgdonreloading.com lists the following for a 158gr bullet under pistol loads out of a 10" barrel:

Starting load 16gr 1504 fps

Maximum load 18 gr 1577 fps

So, add 400 fps due to increase barrel length and I should get around 1900 -1977 fps........looks like the starting load will be a bit too much since the bullet is rated up to 1800 fps, so my starting load will be 14.5 gr and I'll chrono it.
 
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