Horiuchi's turn in the crosshairs

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991108/horiuchi.htm

IMNSHFO, Horiuchi should be hauled up on capital murder charges for both Ruby Ridge and Mt Carmel, sentenced to death, and Randy W. gets to pull the trigger, if he so desires.

Rant, bitch, gripe...

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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question.." Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
 
There are a few people who should face the music first...

My opinion,

Eric
(Understand, he is far from innocent, but there are others who are much more guilty)
 
Okay, so I was NOT at Ruby Ridge. But some of the statements reek of
bovine exhaust and should be investigated with the same vigor a CHL holder
would be subject to!

(quote)
To his defenders, Horiuchi–who has testified he could hit a quarter at 200
yards–is a consummate pro, honed as a military officer, burnished as a
leader of an FBI Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) sniper crew. "He was
dedicated, hard working, aggressive. He was trying to do the right thing,
trying to serve his country in a stressful environment,"
(unquote)

- If he could hit a quarter at 200 yards, then how did he shoot the wrong
person? If one of us were under attack by five buggers with guns and we
accidently shot the wrong person, we’d be lucky to be charged with
negligent homicide rather than murder.

- Horiuchi was in a stressful environment? How so? He could see his
targets. They (presumably) could not see him. Where’s the stress? If he
couldn’t handle being hidden, how would he handle being shot at by a bad
guy sniper? (Now THAT would be stress!)

-------
(quote)
A federal judge dismissed the case last year, ruling that "Mr. Horiuchi,
rightly or wrongly, was clearly acting under orders authorized by the U.S.
government to go shoot and kill an armed male adult because the threat to
human lives had already been determined by his supervisors based on the
facts then known to them."
(unquote)
- Horiuchi did not kill an armed male. Horiuchi killed a woman with a baby
in her arms. With his supposed skill and discipline, it is hard to call that “a
simple mistake”. Again, if it happened to a CHL holder he would be
crucified! Sarah Brady (the wicked witch) and her monkey army would be
all over the media calling for some CHL holder’s blood and the outlawing of
anything that goes “Bang!”.
- And the “Nuernberg” defense was deemed invalid both then and at My
Lai!
-------
(quote)
If true, it is an ironic legacy for a man who has dedicated his life to
defending that government.
(unquote)
“...Defending the government”? From unarmed mothers with a baby in
their arms? From a man who merely wanted to be left alone?
Using the same perverted logic, the German SS and Gestapo were just
trying “to clean up a little”.
-------
“Innocent until proven guilty” should not only apply to Horiuchi. The
government worked diligently to entrap Randy Weaver, lied to him, misled
him, prevented the local LEOs from going up there to talk with him, shot his
14 y/o son in the back, etc. also should answer for their questionable and/or
illegal participation.

These HRT units are supposed to be protecting people - NOT the
government! The units are valuable and necessary only so long as they do
not become “rogue” units endangering our citizens wrongly, without cause.

Even the most charitable government apologist would have to say the Ruby
Ridge affair was mishandled. Me, I think it was another Waco-style incident
- shameful, disgraceful, and unfortunately a trend.

We are ruled by an oligarchy who is creating “terror squads” who endanger
our citizens and defame our honest police efforts.

So there you go guys. I’m wearing my Nomex under this ankle-length
helmet - so flame away! :)
 
Dennis, I think the only flames you'd get would be if you happened to wander out in front of the flamethrowers at Knob Creek and no one called a cease-fire.

Personally, I think you're being too nice. :)

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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question.." Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.



[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited November 05, 1999).]
 
Dennis you said it better than i could. The authorities in Idaho tried to get Horiuchi tried for murder,but Suprreme Court ruled that a Federal Officer cannot be prosecuted in a` state on a federal job. we are 50 soverign states or republics according to the Constitution and we have allowed a Central Regime,which belongs in DC, to basically rule us like serfs. i hear horiuchi was at Waco also. But he is only one of a bunch of federal people with a like mindset. And our system ,as it is set up by the powers to be, is helpless to protect us from such abuses. what is not generally know is that if Col. Gritz had not difused the situation at Ruby Ridge and got Randy Weaver to surrender, the local people were getting ready to take on the Feds besieging Randy. The 1990's have been very bad for the Constitutional rights of Americans. We are losing.
 
Ivan,
We sure do agree on one thing. It is just flat wrong for the Supreme Court to rule that federal officers can not be prosecuted by the state for crimes committed while on duty in the state.
 
Yup, It makes sense to me. Horiuchi can hit a quarter at 200 yds. But he can't hit a full grown man center mass.
If I as a Local LEO had made that shot and killed an innocent women, Heaven help me.

We Local LEOs are held to a much higher standard than feds. First we are supposed to know the differance between lawful orders and unlawful orders. Horiuchi's orders were unlawful in the first place. He knew it that is why he tried to say they were a threat to the helicopter.

Had I made either of the two shots Horiuchi made at Ruby Ridge. I would have been tried by the state and if they dared not to convict the feds would have come after me with a vengenance.
 
Yes, Mr. Horiuchi followed unlawful orders. Yes, a federal judge has ruled that he cannot be tried in state court for following those orders-conveniently ignoring all those hanged in Nuremberg and Tokyo who claimed the same defense (with more cause, those Germans and Japanese would have been tortured to death for refusing to obey, Horiuchi would have lost a pension at most).

However, I believe Mr. Horiuchi's statement of his markmanship prowess and the FBI's prior statements of the high standards to which the HRT's are trained which takes one beyond being affected by the stress of shooting unarmed women. I believe Mr. Horiuchi shot exactly who he intended to shoot and that the shot impacted exactly where he aimed. Mr. Horiuchi is not only a murderer, he is a premeditated murderer.

Tell you people who believe another way this. You've got friends in the FBI. The FBI snipers at Ruby Ridge who later testified that they quietly refused to follow the "modified" rules of engagement. Compare their subsequent careers to Mr. Horiuchi's. If they are still in the Bureau, I'm willing to bet they are no longer HRT members. No place there for men with integrity. I'll bet they've been posted to Podunk. Simple test, easy to prove.

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Byron Quick
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They say there are also photos of shell casings on the undercover building where Horiuchi and other snipers were stationed. But firearms experts say it would be nearly impossible to match them with Horiuchi's weapon. "They re-barrel those [sniper] weapons no less than every two years," says one weapons analyst. [/quote]

Yes but do they replace the firing pins or the whole actions that often? I would think a foresic tool mark expert could match a shell casing to a firing pin mark or an extractor mark or other marks made on the shell when it's cycled through the action given access to the rifle and a shell casing. I certainly hope the rifles he used at Ruby Ridge and Waco are locked in an evidence locker somewhere.

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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
 
The politics, my friends, the politics! You are arguing the minutea of the situation instead of looking at the politics that prompted the entire episode. These guys were white supremecists and not politically correct and deserved to be "busted". Don't you know it was to be another big anti gun event for the national news? Don't you know that Waco was supposed to have been the same thing? Turned out a little more than a simple gun bust in both cases, didn't it? Expect more of this for people who are deemed politically incorrect. Does Texas come to mind? Watch for more of it as it is a great political tool for dealing with the politically incorrect who dare to speek of gun rights or a corrupt government. Makes a lot of people think that all gun owners are gun nut, wacko malitiamen bent on destroying the US.
 
Horiuchi a West Point grad and ex-infantry officer. A real shame he forgot what the words "Duty, Honor, Country" mean.

He has dishonored thousands of members of the "Long Grey Line" who would have resigned or died before sinking to his level.

Just MHO....
Mike
 
As I see it the worse thing to come out of this is that the locals do not have the power to lawfully defend themselves in a court of law. By the feds ruling that the state of Idaho can not prosocute him, they have in fact stated that the feds are above the law. So who is now to try him? His fellow officers? Janet Reno? The ones who ordered him to fire? Was not the crime committed on state property? If the state and country in which the crime was committed no longer has the power to arrest and lawfully place him on trial for his crimes, then what options are left? Another nail in our coffins.



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
Then maybe its time for states like Idaho to leave this Union since the people of Idaho ARE DEFENCELESS AGAINST FEDERAL ASSASINS. Or is calling Horiuchi a assasin too strong a word? Alex Jones in his video , "Police State 2000", is right on the money. Police State is around the corner. I can nearly see it now.it looks like people everywhere will soon be defenceless, according to Federales Law, from the Central Regime and whoever is the Emperor at the time.
 
Lon Horiuchi deserves the same hand that he delt.Let`s not forget Richard Roberts and the BAT-men.I think that the US Marshal`s were suckered.They should slide.
 
"For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of thes States;"

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Sic semper tyranus!
 
Do you guys remeber the Senate hearings on Ruby Ridge? This was when I started like Arlen Spector.
His issue was that the FBI had an "internal" memo stating that the key to drawing out Weaver was "neutralizing" his wife. The memo was based on Physco-babble that made Randy seem like the passive and Vicki the dominate one. (I've never met him, and would not choose to, so I can't say) This was what made Lon H's shot so nasty. Not that it was illegal, shooting to kill *any* armed person, but because it appeared to be a straight murder.

The line I loved from the hearings, the ATF guy is explain that the reason they went after Weaver was because he was an "arms smugglar".
Spectors reply, "He seemed to me to be some guy under his apple tree sawing off a couple shotguns and didn't pay his tax" (Or something of that sort, any ways it was sickenly funny the whay it was "simplified".

I'll take a look at Thomas today and see if I can hunt up Arlens whole hearing.

Eric
 
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