Home defense: Would you rely on rubber buckshot as your first shot?

P

Para Bellum

New member
Hi there,

I am still arguing with myself on the optimum home-defense load for my double-barrel 12ga TOZ 34 EP.

- Would you rely on rubber buckshot like e.g:

Fioccis Rubber Buckshot: 12LERBK, 12, 2 3/4", 790 fp/s, 15 pell., .33"

I'd suggest the first barrel to be loaded with rubber buckshot and the second one with #1 or 00 lead or steel buckshot. If I need more than two blasts, my Glock19s will do the rest...

Being an attorney myself I see a great advantage with the rubber buckshot in the legal aftermath. The only question is, whether it does also mean a risk in the "foreplay" to the legal aftermath, i.e. the fight. Penetration, neighbours and familiy might me more reasons for the first shot to be rubber. What do you think or know about it?
 
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Even rubber buckshot, at close range, is lethal. My pump 12 ga. is loaded with S&B 00 Buck (12 pellets). We have the "Make My Day" law in Oklahoma and if someone breaks into your home you have the legal right to use deadly force. Statistics show that the majority of forced entries, especially those when the perp knows the owners are home, are commited by drug-users while they are high. This situation is only resolved, in most cases, when the intruder is killed or severely wounded/incapacitated. This is not the time to question your load or it's affect on the criminal, it is the time to STOP the intruder while defending life and limb. If you are not willing to do this, then you don't need to be using a firearm.
 
I guess I sort of agree with mtnbomer. The second last thing I want in life is to be involved in a shoot out,, the first last thing I want is to be dead from a shootout. I will give someone one chance to hit the floor, willingly or dead,, but he WILL hit the floor one way or the other. It is sad we have to consider these options in the 21st century but thank God we STILL have the right and means for now.
 
This is not the time to question your load or it's affect on the criminal, it is the time to STOP the intruder while defending life and limb. If you are not willing to do this, then you don't need to be using a firearm.[/QUO
TE]
I disagree on one point. It depends on the state you live in. For instance, Md indicts (more often than not) people who use a firearm in their home against intruders. The rubber shot would add to the information a Grand Jury would look at.

We do not have methamphetamine addicts who break into homes here (yet) and so most druggies here are affected by rubber shot. (PCP users are usually too loopy to break into houses).

Rubber buckshot is lethal at close range but it would be less lethal at moderate distance (IMO), so a child that is accidentally shot would be more likely to survive.

Maybe you can tell me this Parrabellum, since you are a lawyer, but this came up somewhere else on TFL and no one answered a question I have. If (in Md) I was allowed to perform a citizen's arrest, then why can't I defend myslef from a burglar if he refuses the arrest? In Md the DA's say that if you have an avenue of escape from your home, you must take it and only use force if you have no escape. But what if I am detaining the burglar? Don't I have a right to arrest (by citizen arrest) someone who is stealing my personal property in my own home the same as I can arrest someone who is stealing outside of my home.


As far as having not reason to own a firearm mentioned in the quote- If I did not have a gun at all (in your state) would I not use a baseball bat that has a less than lethal force? How different is the rubber buckshot compared to using a kitchen knife or a baseball bat? (not a flame. A serious question for purposes of learning)
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The last thing I want is an intruder surviving a home invasion so he can come back later and sue me. If you shoot him twice, the first time with rubber shot, and he still survives, then he would be sure to sue for unreasonable force. Just my opinion.
 
The rubber shot would add to the information a Grand Jury would look at.
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They sure could/would. The issue would be brought up that maybe you were not in fear for youre life at all so shouldn't have used a firearm.

I'm against using anything but real bullets for defense for this reason. They would strive to use it against you. lethal or not it is generally viewed as non lethal.
 
I'm against using anything but real bullets for defense for this reason. They would strive to use it against you. lethal or not it is generally viewed as non lethal.
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In regards to the law it may make no difference, but to the people in the Grand Jury it may. Whether they are unfamiliar with guns, or they are familiar with guns and understood the intent, then it may be taken by them into consideration. They may feel that the person was taking some measure to not take a life while protecting himself (remember, I am using what I think to be Md citizen's mindset). Now, an exuberant District Attorney may use the rubber bullets against the home-owner in some bizzare, rarely seen (if at all) cases, but it may not even get past a Grand Jury first. (IMHO)

Kudu,
The surviving family of a dead intruder would get more sympathy in a wrongful death suit than a wounded burglar would. (IMO)
 
You never want to be accused of using deadly force when you knew it wasn't needed. Using a gun - deadly weapon - with ammo that a jury might consider non-lethal is a bad idea. You don't want to send mixed messages to a jury.
If I were using a 12 ga as a home defense gun, I'd load it with #4 buck to reduce that chances of wall penetration and danger to my neighbors. At house distances, it'll hit like a huge Glaser round.

John
Cape Canaveral
 
Para Bellum,

The key word here is "rely". Answer: NO.

If I need to deploy and use a firearm it is because there is a danger to my safety and those with me. If I have to use it, I want that threat stopped as quickly as possible.

Rubber buckshot is fine for riot contol, warding off "pest" animals on one's property and other non-lethal type tasks.

If penetration is a problem (and we've discussed this before) then I'd suggest using a birshot load - anywhere from #4 down to #8. Inside the home the smaller shot is more likely to be stopped by obstacles and walls.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but from other questions you've asked, it seems that you have a shotgun but are seeking some kind of "downsized" loading (or "wounding" load) for it. Pretty silly to take an effective and deadly weapon and try to castrate it. Since yours is a double-barrel, take a look at the "mini-shotshells" from Aguila Ammuniton.
 
Rubber rounds/bean bags/etc. were developed as less then lethal alternatives for law enforcement.

Using one implies that the situation is a less then lethal encounter. Why are you, as a private citizen defending your home, weilding a fire arm in a less then lethal situation?

Your logic will be easily twisted against you.
 
Questions like this always set me back. If you are justified in shooting someone, then rubber buckshot is not a prudent loading. If you are NOT justified, then its use is just as lame.
Leave the rubber bullets for cops, but keep your shottie loaded with real lead.
Worrying what a prosecutor might or might not do, in a court case that might, or might not happen is not something you should be focusing on during a life or death encounter. If you are not focused on doing everything you can, and using every advantage you have, in an effort to stay alive, then you are very likely to wind up dead.
 
The "Less Lethal" ammo was developed EXCLUSIVELY for use by the police in those rare situations where they believe they can take a chance with a dangerous person.

It's for use ONLY where the user is backed up and fully covered by other officers who are armed with LETHAL ammo.

This is not something you want to try on your own. If it fails, and it often does, you're wide open to return fire, and they WON'T be shooting less-lethal.

Second, NEVER, EVER, EVER plan on getting more then ONE shot in a life-or-death situation.
You'll be very lucky if you get one shot, much less two or more. If you do, fine, but don't COUNT on it.

Fire your one less-lethal shot, and it just might be the only shot you get, due to return fire, a firearms failure, or other circumstances.

That one shot better be an effective one.

Next, if the situation isn't serious enough to warrant a load of buck shot, it isn't legally serious enough to fire a gun at someone at all.

The late, great Border Patrolman Bill Jordan once said:
"Like being pregnant, there's no such thing as shooting someone "just a little". If you have to shoot someone, shoot him GOOD".
 
nonsense-laws, real threats and home-defense strategy

Maybe you can tell me this Parrabellum, since you are a lawyer, but this came up somewhere else on TFL and no one answered a question I have. If (in Md) I was allowed to perform a citizen's arrest, then why can't I defend myslef from a burglar if he refuses the arrest? In Md the DA's say that if you have an avenue of escape from your home, you must take it and only use force if you have no escape. But what if I am detaining the burglar? Don't I have a right to arrest (by citizen arrest) someone who is stealing my personal property in my own home the same as I can arrest someone who is stealing outside of my home.
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I am an Austrian business lawyer. I also have a master's degree from New York Universiy School of Law, but I am anything else but an expert in Maryland criminal law. Still, judging only from my fundamental understandig of law and logic, this legal situation you describe sounds like heavy nonsense. Unfortunately this is exactly what some court's produce.

If penetration is a problem (and we've discussed this before) then I'd suggest using a birshot load - anywhere from #4 down to #8. Inside the home the smaller shot is more likely to be stopped by obstacles and walls.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but from other questions you've asked, it seems that you have a shotgun but are seeking some kind of "downsized" loading (or "wounding" load) for it. Pretty silly to take an effective and deadly weapon and try to castrate it. Since yours is a double-barrel, take a look at the "mini-shotshells" from Aguila Ammuniton.
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thank you for your continued advice. You surely realized that I am not settled with my home-defense strategy yet. I do have a 12ga with two 28" barrels and 00 Buckshot ready as well as a reliable handgun. But I am still not sure how to best employ the shotgun if it comes to the need. And, honestly, I fear it would be too long anyway, so I also think about getting a coach gun for defending my home in the way of holding a position (to shield my wife and kids) while waiting for the police to answer the call. I also think about getting a Steyr-AUG A2 semi-auto in .223 or a Remington 7600P pump action rifle in .308, and even a .45/70 or 30/30 lever action rifle still an option :confused: .
All I am sure of is the given threat since my business partner was stabbed in the head repeatedly in November by a turned-down wannabe-client until the perp's folding knive broke.
My problem is that I have no hunting, law-enforcement or combat experience regarding real-life terminal or stopping ballistics and want to get as right as possible in theory before I go to practice (the shotgun was a present).
All I have is basic military training, 20years of martial arts (no-nonsense), good pistol skills and a general shooting talent. What I would want to get is a pum-action-shotgun. But because these were very popular among criminals in Austria, they were banned. Nevertheless it is still legal here to buy semi-auto assault rifles, lever action rifles and pump-rifles :confused: . So much for nonsense-laws.
Anyway, I was sidetracking. Regarding my handguns I believe in using the most effective load regardless of lethal or not. I just don't (didn't) know, whether rubber buckshot weren't a really reliable stopper anyway so that it would be enough at close quarters. If not so, I wouldn't even think about using it.
Thanks for you advice and stay safe.
 
nonsens-laws II / interimistic home defense plan...

At least in my country every citizen has the opportunity to go to your local distric court and have legal questions answered for free by a judge or clerk. Call your local court. Maybe they can or even must explain it to you. If the don't, write a letter to your distric attorney or even secretary of state or justice. You pay them, let them work for you!

My interimistic plan for the moment is:
1. saw my Toz-34EP shotgun's 28" barrels off to the minimum legal barrel length of 18" (45cm). [Or just buy a coach-gun]
2. get a cheap laser-pointer and attach it to the barrels with ducktape or lacing-cord.
3. load it with #1 buckshot (?) and keep this package ready for close quarter defense and the Glock 19s for backup.
4. get a Steyr AUG A2 semi-auto for longer ranges.
 
In my state it is the lawyers who are obligated to provide free initial consultation. But I never wanted to take their time if I didn't plan to retain them.

Why would you use a laser pointer? Maybe a "tactical" (not sure of the real name) flashlight that straps on to shotguns would be better. That way you can see where the spread of your shot will go (although it will be minimal spread at 4 meters from a shotgun) and you can see if you are shooting at a family member if it is dark.
 
with the laser I could shoot the beast from the hip while not blocking most of my sight with the gun. I don't want to rely on the light, it shows too intensly where I am.
 
Home defense: Would you rely on rubber buckshot as your first shot?
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No. I would not rely on it for anything that I can think of. And I can't say why any better than this:
The second last thing I want in life is to be involved in a shoot out,, the first last thing I want is to be dead from a shootout. I will give someone one chance to hit the floor, willingly or dead,, but he WILL hit the floor one way or the other.
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The rubber shot would add to the information a Grand Jury would look at.
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Is that assuming that you live through the encounter, or is that for the Grand Jury to be able to take pity on the home invader (for having been the real victim) after he has ventilated your carcass with a knife/gun/etc?

The whole point behind the lunatic Maryland law isn't about what one uses to defend oneself, but rather that one should never have developed the temerity to defend oneself in the first place. Sheeple are easier to shear when they believe in their hearts and minds that Big Daddy Gummint is the truth, the light, and the way. Sheeple who develop a sense of self-defense often become unruly. Not good. Next thing you know they will want to become self-reliant. How is that going to help the collective?

From the perspective of the law makers themselves your death means less than nothing. You Novus are replaceable. Human predators on the other hand aren't all that easy to come by. And without wolves, what need for the shepherd? Maryland politicians know that the more wolves that prey on the flock (within reason) the better their job security prospects become.

Novus you sound like a really good and reasonable person. At some point you should do yourself a huge favor and try living (for at least a year) in a state where your fellow citizens actually think that a good person's life is more valueable than the life of a murdering dirtbag. I promise you that it will change your life forever.
 
I use a slicked-up Stoeger double-barrel for HD & use the Aguila shells mentioned above. I can get 2 Aguilas in each loop of a 5 loop butt-cuff. The recoil is very modest, and the pattern at 15 yards is great.
 
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