Hollywood behind "Urban Warrior" training:

M

Meat-Hook

New member
Disclaimer:

**1st off, I use the term "Urban Warrior" because its
easily
recognizable to the board and alerts readers to the
spirit of the
thread in two words. This prevents long titles when
posted, or
vague titles.Just in case someone thought I was
refering to the past military exercise known as Urban
Warrior.******

Ahem,

Anyway,,,,,,,Dan rather and the CBS evening news
showed a Army
"Urban Warrior" facility at Ft. Knox, Kentucky tonight.
It cost $15
Million to build, and Hollywood is helping them do it.

They showed, exploding cars, burning gas stations
using Hollywodd
special effects.

I thought it was kinda cute that the gentle, loving
folks, at Walt
Disney helped them. Im sure Walt must be proud.

It just makes me wonder, since the army has sunk
Millions into
building this "village" and If my memory serves me
correctly, the
Marines have their own "village" also, whey then do
they need to do
"Urban Warrior" exercises in American cities?????

Also, since we have been occupying the likes of Haiti,
Bosnia and
now Kosovo, why in gods name can they not practise
their stuff
there??? I think that would be a much more
appropriate setting than
Main Street, USA.

Hey!, "Hollywood and the New World Order". Now
theres a thread!!!


Meat-Hook
 
Meat-Hook,

MOUT training (Military Operations Urban Terrain) is probably the hardest training in the military to perform well at. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's harder than Ranger/SF/SEAL training. Just that in MOUT training every corner is "the Front" not to mention the "rear". What I'm trying to say is there is NO set battle plan. Look at Somalia, there are documented cases of Rangers holding a corner and returning fire yet being shot in the back. MOUT is real hard to get right.

Now, if Hollywood comes in and provides realistic "explosions" and other devices that will enhance combat training by intrducing confusion onto the battlefield I'm all for it. There are MOUT sites at most major Army installations, Ft Bragg's is even named for Delta Snipers Randy Shugart and Gary Gordon, Medal of Honor receipents for actions in Somalia on 3-4 Oct 1993. There is also a site at Ft Hood, ATF trained there prior to WACO. Also Benning, Ft Polk Louisana. These are just a few.

What the Marines are bringing into to equasion is another part that can't be duplicated on an Military Installation. By using "real" citizens in training exercises it allows the Marines to interact with unscripted responses from the "local" populations. Granted interaction with the citizens outside an installation is not the same interaction one would get with say, refugees in Kosovo, or any other foreign country. But it is dynamic, and most importantly unrehearsed.

And if that adds to the ability of American troops be they Army Soldiers, or US Marines, to come home after a mission then I support this type of training wholeheartedly.

Gator

[This message has been edited by swampgator (edited April 21, 2000).]
 
Swampgator:

The reason our troops have been sucked into the likes of the Fiasco of Somalia,Bosnia, Kosovo, is because of our Bumbling political leaders (Like Bill & Nurse Ratchet.

Who deploy our military in order to cause convenient "diversions" away from the Lewinsky hearings, ect.

These deployemts are hollow.

They have no real meaning and are going nowhere. Its a dead-end street created by the peace-nicks of the Democrat Party in order to sway attention away from their parties troubles.

-Need we even mention pill-factories in the Sudan?

-Goat herds being blown up in Afghanistan,

-Civilian trains blown to smithereens in Serbia, only to find out NATO spliced the film footage to make it look 300% *faster than what the original film was, when they blew the train up crossing the bridge.

And,...so,..on.

I think the smart thing is:

after 7 1/2 years of Hillary, WE-NEED-A-BREAK.

-No more of this frivolous deployment of our troops at their whim. No,...I mean to say: NONE,.....zip-zero, deployment of our troops to these mindless, never-ending, bivouac's.

Its time to return our military forces into being soldiers. Not "Court Jesters", and not comedians, sent to entertain crowds and amuse the liberal media. And provide them with a "story".

The only reason we are headed in the direction of towns, cities, and Hamlets,..is because of "Them". 7 1/2 years.

Ill say it again: Seven and Half Yeeeears,...of them.

Leave our Military alone.!

Meat-Hook
 
What swampgator said.

blades67
11B/11M/71D

------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

I hunt, therefore I am.
 
Meat-Hook,

It doesn't matter the politics behind the deployments. Once American troops are on the ground in a foreign nation, for whatever reason, they deserve to have the best training possible prior to going wherever they go.

If you let your prejudice for the current administration effect your support for the lives of US troops, then you are only doing a disservice to uniformed troops on the ground.

I personally do not agree with Bill's deployment of troops to every situation that arises. Given that Somalia originated as a Bush adminstration Humanitarian effort, Clinton used the auspices of UN nation building to go after Aidid. The following year saw Cuba, with a massive deployment to GETMO in support of Haitian refugees. That year also brought the Haitian deployment. Then Bosnia, Kosovo et al. Never have I agreed with them. But when I was in (1992-1995) I didn't have the option of not going. Not to say the question would have crossed my mind.
Most of the professional Soldiers/Marines while quietly grumbling about a deployment amongst themselves, would never think about dropping the ball in country. By that I mean doing a piss poor job. Because to US Servicemen and women, doing a piss poor job leads to loss of life, either their own or their comrades. Bottom line you do the mission the right way or take casualties.

Mark Bowden did one hell of a fine job describing the motivations of a young soldier in BLACKHAWK DOWN. It has been discussed here quite a bit, do a search. The one thing the Rangers and Delta members all say is that without the high level of training the had received the casualties would have been a lot higher. They don't say "I didn't quit that night". They don't have to. Their actions showed the by God guts and determination a US soldier can have when faced with overwhelming odds in a desperate situation.

Now your comments do have merit, and we are in agreement on the mis-management of force deployment priority. However I think you fail to see value of training for low intensity conflict. If my troops (yes dammnit my troops, they are the men and women that keep ME free and allow me to sleep at night) die because of lack training we have a problem. But if someone wants to come in and make their training more realistic and make them better fighters then I stand behind that wholeheartedly.

So since you seen interested in sleep, sleep on that!
Gator
(US Army Military Police Corps 1992-1995)

[This message has been edited by swampgator (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
How many years has the Marines been in business? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.

How many times in those years have they conducted training here to prepare them for their mission elsewhere. I mean the type training they're receiving in Swansboro, NC.

They're being trained, if I recall in house to house, and car searches. Purportedly looking for guns and ammunition.
With that idea in mind then, I can only surmise then, that ALL NATO forces will be stationed in America soo, to conduct training exercises. Because it's most like the theatre they're expected to perform their mission in.

As I said before in a similar thread. Does the Armed Forces drop desert survival trainees in downtown Tucson?
Do they drop the artic survival trainees in Minot? Maybe, but I don't think that would provide the training necessary.

And neither would performing house to house type training in the US. There is a skunk at work here, and it's odor is not being masked.

Best Regards,
Don

------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
 
Donny,

Do you remember Somalia, early in 1993. The Marines were searching cars and buildings for weaponry. If I could post a photo, I've got one somewhere of a Marine squad checking out a carload of Sammies. Also have photos of Army troops checking buildings in Haiti in search of weapons caches. The reason that they're training here in American cities is that it is logistically a propostion than trying to conduct this training overseas.
So no I disagree that the US Marine Corps is practicing to disarm American citizens.

The US has been MOUT (Military Operations Urban Terrain) fighting since WWII, and has faced the growing challenge of fighting in built areas. How do you get good at fighting in built up areas? You wargame it and practice until you have it down.

Given the current global political situation, a large scale war ala Desert Storm isn't going to happen as often as troops being placed in the middle of Low Intensity Conflicts (LIC). Based on what I've seen through out previous US interventions, every local seems to have a gun.

Going back to what I said in previous postings the advantage to having the Marines interact with civilians in a real environment will give then an advantage on their next deployment to a LIC. Training in a situation where a citizen who gets stopped becomes beligerent is better training than having a soldier or Marine act beligerent in a scripted training scenario. It (hopefully) teaches them to interact with a potentially hostile crowd and to accomplish the mission without looking to the OC (observer controller or umpire) to call a time out to critique their actions.

Whether or not you agree or disagree with what I've said, I showed you direct examples of how the exact same training that the Marines conducted is benefical in the long run.

Gator

[This message has been edited by swampgator (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
The Marine Corps was created Nov 10, 1775. Its first urban action was the seizing of Derna Castle from the Pasha of Tripoli in the Barberee pirates war of the early1800. Since then Marines have fought in seizure of the citadel in Chipaltapec in the Mexican American war. The pacification of various rebels inside and outside of cities in the banana wars. The seizure of Okinawa city in Okinawa Japan. The seizure of Soul in the Korean War. The seizure of Hue city in the Vietnam war. In a six year period following the end of the cold war the Marines went ashore 62 times, at an average of once ever 5 weeks. They to operate in semi-urban environment in Ras El Kafji in the Gulf War. Operated full urban environment in Mogadishu, in Somalia. The conducted full NEO (Non-Combatant evacuation operations) in Tirana, Albania, Freetown, Liberia, Mogadishu, Somalia, East Timor and countless other little places.
 
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