Hollowed bullet easy to get & hard to survive

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Interesting, here we go with that right vs. need thing. Someone saying no one needs this, except............


Hollowed bullet easy to get & hard to survive
BY ALISON GENDAR and DAVE GOLDINER
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Monday, December 12th, 2005

http://www.nydailynews.com/12-12-200...p-317961c.html

Hollow-point bullets like the one used in the slaying of Officer Daniel Enchautegui are much deadlier than ordinary bullets - and nearly as easy to get.

Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets because they are less likely to pass through a target and ricochet into a fellow cop or bystander.

But they want their public sale banned to keep them out of the hands of thugs like Enchautegui's alleged killers, Steven Armento and Lillo Brancato.

"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."

Armento allegedly shot Enchautegui with his father's .357-caliber handgun, loaded with the hollow-point bullets.

Anyone with a gun permit can buy the hollow-points in a gun shop. They also are readily available on the black market.

"Anybody can go out and buy them," said Michael Palladino, head of the Detectives' Endowment Association.

The main difference between hollow-point and regular, "full-metal jacket" bullets is that the hollow-points flatten on impact and expand inside a target.

The NYPD switched to the new ammo in 1999.

"They are less likely to penetrate the intended target and hit a bystander," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.

An on-duty cop's bulletproof vest would likely provide the same protection from a hollow-point as a regular bullet.

http://www.nydailynews.com/12-12-2005/news/story/374014p-317961c.html
 
Anyone with a gun permit can buy the hollow-points in a gun shop. They also are readily available on the black market.
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Actually, you don't even need a 'gun permit' to buy them. At least not in ID. I didn't even know there was a black market for ammunition. It's cheap enough as it is.

much deadlier than ordinary bullets - and nearly as easy to get.
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I thought hollowpoints were ordinary bullets. And since when are they at all harder to get than FMJ?

The interesting thing about this article is that the author tells us all about how much safer hollowpoints are, and then proceeds to call for a ban on them. I think somebody's brain has been wandering, and hasn't checked back in.
 
"Actually, you don't even need a 'gun permit' to buy them."

Don't you need a FID card to buy ammo in New York? I thought you did...
 
Thank goodness I live in a Red state, where you can get ammo just by being old enough. Hollowpoint is actually better to use, I carry it in my CCW piece. With Hollowpoint Ammo, there's less chance of it penetrating through the other side, thereby reducing the chances of a pass-through accident. In the event you ever do have to defend yourself, I would rest easier knowing that I'm less likely to endanger an innocent bystander.
 
And no one even pointed out ... it's less likely to pass thorugh a bullet proof vest than FMJ.

A silly article from the very beginning. After they outlaw HP the next article will be wondering why civlians are allowed to buy deeply penetrating FMJ bullets -- the same kind of bullet carried by the military! Why does a civilian need military ammunition?!
 
"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."
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This is a sickening, loathesome thing for anyone to say, much less someone who represents the police.

No one but cops should have the ability to stop violent felons?! :mad:
The authorities should ban anything I could use to stop a felonious attack on myself or my family, Mr. Lynch?

I hope that Mr. Lynch's family are not cops, and as such do not have "that ability" the next time someone tries to, say, rape his wife. Maybe when she succumbs to the attack because she did not have "that ability," that will drive home to him the error of his stupidity.

It's getting harder and harder to tell these peoples' asses from their heads... :rolleyes:


-azurefly
 
So full of misinformation and lies... Hopefully the article will show some fencesitters out there just where the media bias lies and they will know better than to take the next article at face value.

But unfortunately I've given up on such rare individuals... +1 Lawdog.
 
But they want their public sale banned to keep them out of the hands of thugs like Enchautegui's alleged killers, Steven Armento and Lillo Brancato.

<snip>

Anyone with a gun permit can buy the hollow-points in a gun shop. They also are readily available on the black market.
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Hey, thought-impaired cops, please explain how something that is "readily available on the black market" can be "[kept] out of the hands of thugs" by banning it? You JUST got finished saying it was readily available on the black market!

Take it away from the regular market, full of people who are NOT criminals, who do NOT shoot cops, and nothing will change, because the criminal element, who DO shoot cops, will continue getting them from their normal black market sources anyway.

And are we supposed to believe that the difference in lethality between FMJ and JHP bullets is THAT HUGE that if we got rid of JHP all cops would be safe from being shot?

Man, there is some serious stupidity at work, there.

-azurefly
 
It amazes me. Are the citizens of NYC going to revolt? I read these PBA and DEA talking heads comments and I just know there is something in the water. What they need to do is push for shall issue CCW and hope that the bad guys are lousy shots. Armentero was already barred from possessing firearms IIRC. He got his fathers 357 Magnum loaded with HPs. It was a illegal act by a felon with a stolen? handgun. How can anybody blame the firearm or the ammunition? Stupid.
 
The state trooper who was killed recently during the traffic stop in Pennsylvania had his gun taken from the scene by whoever killed him.

When that happens, it demonstrates that BAD PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS GET GUNS SOMEHOW; and even if we were able to somehow make every single civilian-owned gun disappear, before that day was out bad people would have lured ome number of cops to their deaths and taken their guns, thus arming themselves all over again.

Disarmament efforts are FUTILE. What we need to look to are efforts to FIGHT BACK against criminals. We will never ever be able to keep potentially lethal items from their possession. Every person, every politician, every columnist who argues in favor of bans should be exposed as an utter fool who should not be listened to. We need to expose the promulgators of these policies as the frauds that they are.


-azurefly
 
My Letter to the Editor

Dear Editor,

The article “Hollowed bullet easy to get & hard to survive” by Alison Gebdar and Dave Goldiner has no basis in fact or reality. It is pandering to the emotional cries after the tragic loss of two officers but would do nothing to solve the problem.


1. “Hollow-point bullets like the one used in the slaying of Officer Daniel Enchautegui are much deadlier than ordinary bullets” Patently false. The goal of a hollow point is more than to just prevent a round from continuing through the intended target and hitting an innocent bystander. The first and foremost reason for a hollow point bullet is to stop the criminal quicker. A criminal who is shot may stop for one of many reasons. 1. Shock/Pain/Trauma (removing the will to fight) 2. Destroying the Central Nervous System or major organs (brain, spine or heart) 3. Eventual blood loss. Any non expanding round will achieve items 2 and 3. Achieving item 1 though is doubtful without adequate expansion and energy transfer to the target. The amazing fact though is that achieving items 2 and 3 require both more shots due to the difficulty in inflicting such damage and are almost always fatal and that is much more common with non-hollow points.
The hollow point, by more adequately removing the criminal’s will to continue the fight actually SAVES LIVES. The fight ends faster meaning the officer or citizen firing on the criminal is less likely to be hit in return and fewer shots should be required to stop the criminal, increasing his chances of surviving. Please note, the two criminals were both shot and lived. If officer Enchautegui was using department issue ammunition then both of those criminals have been shot with those same “More deadly” hollow points, and shot multiple times to boot. By your logic they should be dead.

2. “Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets …But they want their public sale banned” What cops, how many say this, how many did you ask, is this nationally or just in NYC? Are you only going by the words of Mr. Lynch who is currently responding to the grief of the NYPD or did some actual investigation get done? If you look beyond the small region that is NYC to the rest of the entire nation I believe you will see a very different response from the average street cop.

3. “"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."” That is not their mission according to recent and past US Supreme Court decisions. If any effort was put into checking these you would have learned that police departments have no responsibility whatsoever for the protection of individual citizens against violent felons. The police have a responsibility to INVESTIGATE the crime but stopping it from happening to you or I is completely beyond their responsibility. By default it is the individual that is responsible for their own final defense against criminals. This was plainly pointed out during the aftermath of Katrina when the police left citizens to fend for themselves while looters and other assorted criminals roamed the streets. For Mr. Lynch to assert that only his officer have the right to defend themselves is hypocritical and an abomination to all that the framers of our Constitution held dear. The police do the best they can in a noble calling BUT they are not entitled to protect themselves and their loved ones while leaving all the other members of society defenseless.

4. “Armento allegedly shot Enchautegui with his father's .357-caliber handgun, loaded with the hollow-point bullets.” If it was his father’s gun it was illegal for him to have it in NYS. If the gun was illegal for him to have I doubt he would be troubled by having illegal bullets as well…

5. “Anyone with a gun permit can buy the hollow-points in a gun shop.” Have you applied for a permit? Are you aware of the incredibly strict rules for handgun ownership in NYS and even more so in NYC? I am confident in saying that the background and character checks required for a NYS and NYC permit are far in excess of what are required for work at your paper. Are you actually suggesting that legally owned arms and ammunition are a problem in NYC? Where are your facts to back this up? How many crimes are committed with ammunition and arms legally possessed by the criminal at the time of the crime?

6. “They also are readily available on the black market.” So another law would make them doubly illegal? Exactly how does a law making ownership of a hollowpoint bullet illegal inhibit a criminal willing to kill a cop or citizen?

7. “An on-duty cop's bulletproof vest would likely provide the same protection from a hollow-point as a regular bullet.” Correction, a hollow point bullet is LESS likely to penetrate a bulletproof vest. The rapid expansion and broad surface area of the round work directly against its ability to penetrate a vest. On the other hand full metal jacket rounds have an easier time penetrating a vest, although modern vests are capable of defeating most jacketed rounds. Please note that the officers’ bulletproof vests played no part in either recent tragedy. One was hit in a region not protected by the vest and the other was not wearing his vest.

Other than your call for additional legislation and the seven points listed above your article could be accurate. The next time you feel the need to give in to emotion and not fully investigate a story do the world a favor, DON”T DO IT.

What needs to be done is for the officers of the NYPD need to immediately study what went wrong to allow two officers in a week to be slain. Sadly it was the fault of criminals who have no problem taking a life regardless of what the law says. No amount of legislation will remove criminals or the crimes they commit. The best that can be done would be for the emotional outcry to cease and for there to be an in-depth and emotionless investigation into what contributed to these two losses. With luck and the ability to look at itself and its fallen heroes honestly the NYPD may be able to learn something from this that will save other officers in the days to come.

XXXXXXXX
Long Island, NY
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It will never be even partially printed but that's life.
 
Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets because they are less likely to pass through a target and ricochet into a fellow cop or bystander.

"They are less likely to penetrate the intended target and hit a bystander," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.

"There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."
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Once again, "The Government needs them, people do not."
I am SO freaking sick of hearing this feces from "The Police."

WHY is it that "The Police" think they need to walk the streets armed to the teeth with machine guns, high capacity autopistols, hollow-point ammunition, Tasers, pepper spray and trench knives, while We The People whom they supposedly "serve" are supposed to sit helplessly in our homes, praying to God that the thugs who run the streets will show us mercy?

The reason is that "The Police" are a branch of "The Government" and are its enforcers, meant to serve "The Government," not We The People. The reason for this sorry state of affairs is that police administrators are cut from the same cloth as the socialist politicians who put them into their positions. They want absolute control of We The People while denying us the ability to resist socialist/police state "governance."

I am not - nor have I ever been - "anti-police." I am, however anti- police state. Alot of police officers on the street are just like the rest of us here - they despise the anti-freedom socialist bureaucrats that are working to strip We The People of the ability to defend our homes and our families. Alot of police officers have served in the military and have put their asses on the line for our nation and our Constitution.

Just like in Washington, the problem is the socialist control freak "experts" who know what we need and are by-God going to give it to us one way or the other.

Too bad We The People do not have a way to ram the laws and restrictions down "The Government's" throat that "The Government" is always trying to ram down our throats. As I said elsewhere, I say 10 round magazines are plenty for "The Government" to have.
 
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“Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets …But they want their public sale banned” Read that as," I am the spokesman so I get to say what I want to". I have found that when a public statement like this brings heat on the speaker from those he represents, his retraction, if any happens, never makes the news. A similar public statement by the head of the association I belonged to prompted me to "unjoin" while he was in a leadership position.Neither I nor any officer I talked to had been asked for an opinion prior to the statement.
Steve
 
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