Hollow Points in Semi.?

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Snakeman

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I just came back from the local range, where I had to qualify for the Conc.Permit.
I used my Kel Tec that I only purchased 2 week ago.
It shot really good and I had no problems whatsoever, using Full Jacket 115gr. bullets.(100 rounds total)
The instructor told me that you can only be certain of a Semi's reliability by testing them with Hollow points, since that's when MOST of them fail.
Is that fact or fiction?
Edward PS:Shortfuse, I will report in 200 Rounds and some more tests.

[This message has been edited by Snakeman (edited August 19, 1999).]
 
That probably used to be the case back when HP's had a lot of exposed lead around the cavity nose and the cavity was huge. Now days, with the premium HP's like Hydra-Shoks, Gold Dots and similarly built bullets, the problem should be no more frequent with them than with any other round.

Some guns do favor one bullet shape over another due to the geometry of the magazine, ramp and barrel throat. I would not personally trust any carry gun that had not fired at least 100 rounds of my preferred carry ammo without a stoppage. That would hold true no matter what the bullet type was.

Mikey
 
Remington Golden Sabers have a nose profile that closely follows that of a fmj. I have not fired any G/S in any caliber other than .45ACP but I have a friend that has used the 9m/m with no problems out of a Luger.

FWIW

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
Snaky ,

This is a question in which the
answers will be endless & two
sided. My opinion FMJ is always
the way to go. If you have to
shoot thru layers of clothing
or windows you need penetration.
I want velocity not expansion.
BG's are killed with penetration
not stopping power. The bullet
needs to reach its destination 1st
and penetrate as many organs as
possible. You fire a hollow point
at a BG it may stop short of reaching
vital organs. If you live in a apartment
& are worried about going thru the
sheetrock and killing innocents ,
load hollow points. I think I answered
a different question? FMJ do load with
less function problems than hollow
points. (physics)

Give me a full report on your P11.
Very interested.


------------------
"No Tailgating!"


[This message has been edited by SHORTFUSE (edited August 18, 1999).]
 
I'd like to tie in a few things stated here.

"Full metal jacket is the way to go" - for pure reliability, yes. They do offer another problem. FMJ's in certain calibers, typically 9mm and above, can indeed shoot THROUGH a potential attacker and YOU are liable for any damage, injuries or deaths as a result of that now "stray" round.

Hollow points on the other hand generally will NOT penetrate beyond the magical 1.5-2.5" zone and therefore will not pass through an attacker. Because of this, not passing through, more energy will be transferred *TO* the attacker which is why it is said that hollow points have better "stopping power". In reality, they are also LESS DEADLY (more liability talk here). A FMJ that passed completely through an attacker will create an entrance wound, cavitation internal damage **AND** a huge nasty exit would - thus it IS indeed more *deadly*.

Hollow points offer better energy transfer, stopping power, and less liability. As far as *reliability*, before you carry an autoloader with HP's, you should fire at least 200 rounds through the gun WITH NO MISFEEDS AT ALL.

My .02

CMOS
 
Round nose FMJ bullets are simply less efficient in crushing tissue as they penetrate than an expanded JHP. The FMJ is semi-pointed and streamlined and this allows it to pass through tissue with little disruption. The amount of tissue contacted by an FMJ RN bullet is, on average, approximately 66 percent of its diameter. The diameter of the permanent cavity is smaller than 66 percent of the bullet diameter. An expanded JHP has a blunt, non-aerodyamanic shape. The amount of tissue contacted by an expanded JHP is approximately 82 percent of its expanded diameter (as long as it does not yaw during penetration).

JHP bullets that plug up with inert materials and do not expand usually produce a permanent cavity that is approximately the diameter of its meplat (bullet tip). The flat meplat of a plugged JHP is more efficient in crushing tissue than an RN FMJ. If you've ever fired both RN and FMJ bullets at paper targets you can easily see the difference. The RN bullets produce a stellate shaped hole whereas the JHPs usually punch out an nice clean hole that is surrounded by smaller stellate tears as the bullet's ogive dialated the hole when the rest of the bullet passed through. The same thing happens in tissue. Flat point and truncated cone shaped FMJ bullets are more efficient in crushing tissue than RN FMJ bullets. An FMJ bullet that is plugged is essentially an FP or TC FMJ bullet.

As for "huge exit wounds," handgun bullets simply tear skin when they exit. An RN FMJ bullet, which does not yaw or does not hit bone, produces an exit hole that consists of several small stellate shaped tears.

The concept behind a JHP bullet is to crush more tissue as it penetrates. This increases hemorrhage if the bullet passes through vital cardiovascular structures. Rapid fatal hemorrhage is the only reliable mechanism of collapse produced by a handgun bullet that hits the torso.

------------------
/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute http://www.firearmstactical.com

[This message has been edited by Shawn Dodson (edited August 19, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Shawn Dodson (edited August 19, 1999).]
 
Thanks to all that responded.
Again I respect the immense knowledge out there, and trust me....it's much appreciated,but let us come back to the ORIGINAL question:
In YOUR experience, will a FULL J.POINT BULLET FAIL LESS THEN A HOLLOW POINT?
If indeed they do, WHY and WHERE in the Semi do they cause the misfunction.

It's a question of reliability and not efectivenes.
Edward
 
Feeding FMJ is always more
reliable than HP , why?
All I can say is , shape of
the bullet at the tip has
a bearing on feeding reliability.
Physics I guess.
 
If you haven't already done so, Snakeman, you need to visit www.KTOG.ORG -- the Kel-Tec Owners Group on the web. Everything you wanted to know about P-11s and how to improve them, and then some. Also get on the User's List, there.

I've had a P-11 for almost two years now. Completely reliable, and pretty damned accurate. I've shot Golden Sabre and Silver Points in it with some frequency with only one stoppage -- and that was early on. (I've been shooting IDPA and have tried most of my guns. My Kel-Tec is a lot easier to use and far more accurate than my snub-nose .357 at the longer ranges, when you must shoot quickly, and far easier to speed load.)
 
Your question: The instructor told me that you can only be certain of a Semi's reliability by testing them with Hollow points, since that's when MOST of them fail.
Is that fact or fiction? Interpreted as, Should I test hollow points first?

Answer: Anytime you are going to keep/carry a weapon for defense, ALWAYS test fire with the ammo you plan to use. Even with FMJ, some different bullet shapes can have problems feeding with some certain pistols (my ex PPK/S was one of them). My advice, sacrifice $25 and shoot 40 to 50 rounds of JHP to be sure. I carry JHP, but I practice with FMJ for cost's sake. But every so often, I spend the extra $25 and use up the JHP to make sure they still feed okay.

LL
 
If you're going to rely on your P11 for personal defense you're advised to verify that the specific ammunition you intend to use functions reliably with your weapon, regardless of whether it's FMJ or JHP.

------------------
/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
I have personally fired many many rounds of both FMJ's, factory JHP's and handload JHP's; I have shot most of the major auto. calibers; I have handled and practiced with pistols from most of the major manufacturers -- everything from Bersa to Sig-Sauer.

In all of those pistols, in all of those rounds, I have had ONE jam. Call it luck or just plain miraculous...

It was with a ball round! I have heard repeatedly that HP's are more apt to misfeed when chambering; the flat tip wouldn't meet the feed ramp properly, resulting in a "low" jam.

The best advice I've ever heard is to make sure your chosen defensive round feeds 100% reliably in YOUR gun. If the pistol/bullet combination is incompatible, find another round. Experiment. And if you still don't have confidence in the combo, trade in the auto for a revolver.

My personal choice? A Colt Commander, loaded with HydraShoks. Doesn't get much better than that.
 
I am not the master ballistician , but there are some very wrong statements here.

First off: Hollowpoints go through glass and walls just as well as a flat-nose FMJ. A round nose FMJ *might* go through a little better (but I doubt it since you are dealing with a hard medium where aerodynamics are less of a variable). So, to "carry hollowpoints at home to keep them from going through the walls" is a falshood, they will go right through your wall. And, using FMJ because you want to shoot through cars and such is not logical either, because a hollowpoint goes through those mediums just as well as an FMJ.
Hollowpoints only open up in liquid tissue, not in walls and cars. The reason why people don't like shooting hollowpoints through walls and cars and glass is because it may damage the hollowpoint and then it will not expand. In that case, you are basically shooting an FMJ bullet. FMJ's never perform better than hollowpoints in any situation except pure penetration (if you want like 2 feet or more of penetration in a fluid body!). In the WORST case scenario, you shoot through the car door or window and the bullet performs as poorly as a FMJ. But, what do you have to lose? A hollowpoint will go through the car just as well, but it also might open up and do some damage once it hits the target.

Also:

"A FMJ that passed completely through an attacker will create an entrance wound, cavitation internal damage **AND** a huge nasty exit wound - thus it IS indeed more *deadly*."

How many bullet wounds have you seen? I have seen a lot, most of them with FMJ's, or hollowpoints that didn't expand (very common in real life), and none of them had this "huge exit wound" that you talk about. Huge exit wounds are caused by the crushing of tissue in a conical fashion, BY A HOLLOWPOINT bullet expanding.
An FMJ that punctures through does very little damage compared to a hollowpoint. If the hollowpoint pushes all the way through, THEN you will (rarely) see the huge exit wound you speak of, because the bullet is coming out much bigger than when it went in, and it is pushing lots of guts along with it.

Ps- Simply invest in a few boxes of your preferred carry ammo. Shoot it and test it's accuracy and feeding. If it does not work, try another brand.

[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited August 22, 1999).]
 
I ahve followed this post as well as others who tell others to shoot between 200 and 500 rounds of their carry load. I wonder why these numbers. I would think if you shot a box of 50 and you weapon didn't care for that load, then you would have problems in the first one or two magazines. I often thought that you might fire say 250 without a problem, clean your gun and load it up with it only to get one shot off before the weapon jams with number 252. Am I missing something?
 
Let me offer one tip.

When you practice fire your carry ammunition always shoot it first when you get to the range. When you have to fire in a life threatoning situation your gun will be drawn out of it's holster cold. When a gun is cold it chambers and shoots differently then when it's hot. Hopefully nothing that you can notice.
The bottom line is test your carry ammunition under the same conditions it may have to be used in. A cold gun.

After that you can fire all day using FMJ to save money.
I keep 2 clips of JHP's for a month. After a month I fire it at the range along with 100 factory reloads of FMJ. I sell back my empties and get a new box of JHP's. This keeps my carry ammo fresh and keeps me in practice using it.

------------------
"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
Snakeman:

Generally, FMJ is always more reliable than an HP, because the wide mouth can jam left, right, low, or high on the chamber mouth simply because the frontal area is wider.

However, as someone pointed out, some of the best HPs, such as Golden Sabers, take care to use the same basic nose profile as an FMJ with a smaller hollow point to ensure 99% to 100% as reliable as an FMJ (sacrifices a little bit of expansion for reliability). The profile curves enough at the front "corners" to make it practically indifferent from an FMJ.

However, not all FMJs do this. A good example is the CCI 200 gr hollow point in 45 acp. The HP is so wide, it's a notorious jammer. Therefore, if your 45 will feed these reliably, they will feed anything, so it's a good test your your gun. Don't know which rounds would be good "tests" for .40 s&w, 9mmP, or 10mm.
 
Nearly every article I've read suggest using hollowpoints for self-defense. It increases the chance of stoppage vs the round nose. Many who have used round nose rounds for self defense report having to use many rounds to stop the attacker,vs few for those who use hollowpoints. Of course,all depends on shot placement. A round nose definately will produce stops if in the right spot. But as one stated,always test the rounds you're using for personal defense in the gun you carry. You may find in doing so they don't feed worth a darn in that particular gun,thereby averting a potential disaster if you ever need it to save your life,or that particular round may not be accurate out of that gun.
 
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