History on these boxed/greased and unissued Savage No.4 MKI* Rifles?

R

regress

Inactive
I've recently ran across photos of several unissued Savage No.4 MKI* rifles, which appear to be "in the grease" and still in original cardboard boxes.

These rifles are U.S. Property marked.

Even the bolt itself appears in it's own box.

Might anyone know the history on these boxes?

Why were these rifles individually boxed?

Based on serial numbers, production appears around 1942, when they would have been needed.

Would be great if anyone had any feedback on the boxes. (why were they boxed? Where and by who? What do the numbers printed on the side of the box represent? Why were they never issued? Where did they end up all these years?)

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

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I think they were probably part of the "Lend/Lease Act" and manufactured for transport to Britain. They were marked US so that we weren't breaking any international laws by specifically manufacturing them for another country. By stamping US on them, that signified that they were our property just on loan to Britain. This would explain the boxes. Just my opinion.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/savageno4/index.asp
 
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Slappy, thanks for the feedback.

I would agree, the lend-lease program seems likely given the U.S. Property stamping on the receivers.

However, when it comes to putting each rifle in an individual cardboard box like pictured, was this normal for Savage No4 production?

If they were all being shipped over to Europe, why weren't they crated together in groups of 10+ in wooden crates? (Like other No4 manufacturers were doing, including Canada in it's Lend-Lease program)

Individual cardboard boxes for each rifle and each bolt individually matching serialed, seems like a lot of work vs wooden group crating. (and the cardboard likely to get ruined in transit by sea)

...perplexing.
 
Regress,

You are correct, Savage manufactured Number 4 Enfield for the lend-lease act. As far as I know, they were the only ones who did. The rifle's designation should be Rifle No. 4 Mk 1*, and would be marked with the savage "S" stamp, which kind of looks more like a "5". You can actually see it in the close up pic of the receiver.

I have one myself, that is dated 1943, and it shoots very well for it's age.

The box question is interesting. Seems unusual they would be shipped individually, but i'm not an expert. Might be a little bit of good history here.

As others have said, are there more of these available?

Please ship without the grease next time. Looks like it was literally dipped in the sludge!..:D
 
I know of none that are currently for sale (unfortunately), however, i've witnessed at least 15 * separate* rifles in the same unissued/boxed state over the years, as well as another 10-15 or so online. (all owned by different individuals)

...so i've seen at least 30 or so versions including the same rifle and bolt boxes. ...this is why i'm curious where these boxes came from and why.
 
Finding a Fazakerley in the wrap is fairly common, but a wrapped Savage is a rare item. I would love to find one.

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I should have bought a truck load.
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The twins.
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Yah, i've came across a fair amount of the Irish Contract No4's still in the wrap as above.

...my only concern so far with the boxed Savage No4's, is that unlike the Irish Contracts, which we've seen hundreds if not thousands of in the wrap, it seems no one has been able to verify that these Savage boxes are authentic/original, and not just something that was done by a distributor or dealer who was selling unissued/crated Savage No4's from surplus after the war. (i've only seen around 30 or so mentioned, seems a small number for it to have happened war-time without any record or knowledge of these boxes anywhere)

...would be great to be able to determine these cardboard boxes for the rifle and the bolt are war-time and "official", and not just something done post-war by a civilian company trying to sell off the guns.

...a shame no one seems to know. Which seems odd. ...the mystery goes on.
 
They weren't sent individually.

They were loaded into their pasteboard cartons, then those cartons were loaded into a wooden shipping crate, IIRC 10 to a crate.

The rifles were protected just as well, if not better, than the old style wooden shipping crate.

Additionally, all the bits and pieces necessary as complete kit for 1 rifle were in the box with the rifle, not tucked into the bottom and corners of the shipping crate.

Finally, the crate was easier and quicker to manufacture since it could be a simple wooden box; it didn't have to have a specially constructed interior designed to cradle each rifle individually.

That "pack in cardboard and pack in a wooden crate" seems to have been the standard process for US arms during WW II. I've seen a number of factory-original weapons on TV shows and in person from this time frame that have still been in their original packaging and cardboard box.
 
Mike,

Thanks for the feedback.

So you reckon the boxes are indeed original? Good to know.

Have you seen Savage No. 4's in these exact boxes in person before? (Recently?)

Unfortunately i've never seen them with accessories included. I've only ever seen complete rifles, with the bolt in it's own seperate box.

No sling or cleaning kit etc.
 
"So you reckon the boxes are indeed original? Good to know."

Yes. They match the marking and general packaging methods used by US manufacturers at the time.

"Have you seen Savage No. 4's in these exact boxes in person before? (Recently?)"

No. Never have, but again, the general style matches that used by other American manufacturers.

Also, I find it VERY hard to believe that a post market surplus dealer would go to the trouble of individually repackaging these rifles.

But, I find it absolutely impossible to believe that if a surplus dealer did do that, that they would have gone to the trouble of putting the bolt engineering drawing number on the box for the bolt.

Surplus dealers don't care about that sort of thing, and they very likely wouldn't even known about that kind of thing.
 
Mike, thanks again for the feedback. It all seems pretty reasonable, and is very much appreciated.

Out of curiosity, what kind of value do you reckon these might have if they were to ever pop up on somewhere like gun broker, or at a national auction?

Truth be told, if I ever had the chance to buy one, i'd be keeping her for life (and fighting myself every day not to "break her in". haha), but i'm curious as to what one might cost me, should I ever run into one again for sale?
 
I may be wrong, but I believe that M1 rifles and carbines were not individually boxed or greased. They were oiled, wrapped in oiled paper and packed 10 to a wooden crate. The Army wanted those rifles available for use as quickly as possible, without the GIs having to degease them. After the war, weapons (including rifles) to be kept in long-term storage were sometimes greased or put in cosmoline, but that was not done in WWII.

I suspect those No. 4 rifles were greased and put in boxes post-war, perhaps by the U.S. importer. One indicator is that the British did not call the No. 4 a "Lee-Enfield" because it was not; they called it a No. 4 and the box should say that.

Jim
 
James K: Do you suspect that the large quantities of old US military rifles stored in the multiple warehouses at the Crane IN Naval Facility are stored in cosmoline, or just left in crates?

regress:
You probably know that most Enfields manufactured in the US and Canada have 2-groove bores. Even a very limited number of the #4/Mark 1s
built in England have two grooves.

Many with a good bit of either throat or muzzle wear etc are known to have serious problems when using BT bullets.
And most modern Prvi .303 ammo I've seen has only BT bullets (why is that?). An Enfield I had with two grooves and a very bright bore made terrible long "keyholes" gashes at only 100 yards.

Traded it for an actual English Enfield #4 which has four or five grooves, though the bore is not as bright.
No more "keyholes" with Prvi BT ammo or my pulled .311 boat tails.
 
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