Historic question regarding .45 Schofield
- Thread starter gav1230
- Start date
Do not know how available the 45 Schofield cartridge would be at that time.. But More guns then just the Scofield can use it.. It could go in the 45 Colts as well as the 45 Smith & Wesson Open tops...
I even think there was a time when the army Issued 45 Schofield ammo because it would fit both the 45 colts as well as the Schofields when they still had both in service..
Just playing devils Advocate and not knowing the local market. But if I was a store clerk and I had a limited order/shelf capacity, it sounds like I would stock Schfield cartridges over Colt 45..
Now the full power boys with their fancy Colt hog legs may not be pleased, but at least I could offer them something. Where as if I offered only 45 colt, anyone with a 45 Schofield or 45 S&W break top would be SOL as well as anyone who did not want the full Colt 45 recoil.
But from what I have read, in the frontier areas there was a thriving reloading business, So I would imagine that if one was able to reload for one they would be ale to reload for the other, as long as the interested party brought in the spent shell casings.
I even think there was a time when the army Issued 45 Schofield ammo because it would fit both the 45 colts as well as the Schofields when they still had both in service..
Just playing devils Advocate and not knowing the local market. But if I was a store clerk and I had a limited order/shelf capacity, it sounds like I would stock Schfield cartridges over Colt 45..
Now the full power boys with their fancy Colt hog legs may not be pleased, but at least I could offer them something. Where as if I offered only 45 colt, anyone with a 45 Schofield or 45 S&W break top would be SOL as well as anyone who did not want the full Colt 45 recoil.
But from what I have read, in the frontier areas there was a thriving reloading business, So I would imagine that if one was able to reload for one they would be ale to reload for the other, as long as the interested party brought in the spent shell casings.
g.willikers
New member
No telling how accurate tv and paperback westerns are, but in the Hopalong novels the boys spend a lot of time in the evenings, hanging around the bunk house, playing cards and reloading ammo.
In the Gunsmoke tv series, the gunsmith can often be found sitting behind his counter with his scales and dippers, reloading ammo, too.
In the Gunsmoke tv series, the gunsmith can often be found sitting behind his counter with his scales and dippers, reloading ammo, too.
This book is one hell of a read.. But to the OP I draw your attention to page 121 - 122. It does not answer the question. But provides some background
http://books.google.com/books?id=n_...q=schofield 45 cartridge availability&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=n_...q=schofield 45 cartridge availability&f=false
After 1876 and the limited adoption of the S&W revolvers, the U.S. army only issued .45 Schofield ammo to troops (even the ones with Colts) so there was no ammo problems between soldiers issued the Schofield and those with Colts. You could have purchased schofield ammo from any military fort.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I suspect that any store that carried S&W revolvers would have carried the ammo to go in them, and S&Ws were pretty widely sold.
The .45 Schofield was a decent seller for the company throughout the life of the Model 3 and the New Model 3. It even made the transition to a few New Century Hand Ejectors.
The .45 Schofield was a decent seller for the company throughout the life of the Model 3 and the New Model 3. It even made the transition to a few New Century Hand Ejectors.
As a sort of mental gymnastic....
...I have pondered how large a town in 1880 would have to be to support a store which sold, among other things, guns and ammunition. My sense is that such a place would be one of the first things to be established in a town. You can get to the census records going back to the date when territories became states and joined the union. I did a good bit of reading on the topic and found that the "West" (I defined that for myself as anything west of the Mississippi which is prolly not a good boundary.) was relatively more populous than I has assumed.
Today it would be a Starbucks before the gun shop (or hardware store that sold also guns.)
This is why I like Dade City, FL. In Dade City, there are actually more stores that sell guns than gas stations. Only way to beat that is to have gas stations that also sell guns. Or gun shops that sell gas.
What a pointless post this was!
...I have pondered how large a town in 1880 would have to be to support a store which sold, among other things, guns and ammunition. My sense is that such a place would be one of the first things to be established in a town. You can get to the census records going back to the date when territories became states and joined the union. I did a good bit of reading on the topic and found that the "West" (I defined that for myself as anything west of the Mississippi which is prolly not a good boundary.) was relatively more populous than I has assumed.
Today it would be a Starbucks before the gun shop (or hardware store that sold also guns.)
This is why I like Dade City, FL. In Dade City, there are actually more stores that sell guns than gas stations. Only way to beat that is to have gas stations that also sell guns. Or gun shops that sell gas.
What a pointless post this was!
Mike Irwin
Staff
Even small towns of a few hundred people were likely to have a general store that may well also have served duty as a restaurant, inn, post office, court house, etc.
I'm confused, not uncommon, I thought only about 9,000 Schofields were produced and that the cartridge would work in the SAAs, but Smith didn't chamber any other handgun for it. The Army standardized its handgun ammo with the M-1887 cartridge, basically a Schofield with a smaller rim.
I can't remember when the Army surplussed their Schofields and wonder if they were readily available in the to civilians in the 1880s. Yes I know Virgel Earp carried one in 'Tombstone' taking place in 1883
I can't remember when the Army surplussed their Schofields and wonder if they were readily available in the to civilians in the 1880s. Yes I know Virgel Earp carried one in 'Tombstone' taking place in 1883
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I'm confused, not uncommon, I thought only about 9,000 Schofields were produced and that the cartridge would work in the SAAs, but Smith didn't chamber any other handgun for it."
Smith & Wesson continued to concentrate primarily on the .44 caliber as "its" big bore round, early on the .44 American, then the .44 Russian, but it was very easy to have them chamber any of their large frames in .45 S&W.
I believe the only pre-1900 S&W never offered in .45 S&W was the Double Action Frontier.
In 1907 S&W introduced the first N frame, the New Century Triple Lock, chambered primarily in .44 S&W Special.
But, again on special order, it could be had in .44 Russian or .45 S&W.
The rarest of all of the Triple Locks, though, are the roughly 20 chambered in .45 Long Colt.
The biggest purchaser of the Army surplus Schofields (sold, I believe, through Hartley and Graham) was the Wells Fargo Company. They cut the barrels back several inches and issued them to their agents.
Smith & Wesson continued to concentrate primarily on the .44 caliber as "its" big bore round, early on the .44 American, then the .44 Russian, but it was very easy to have them chamber any of their large frames in .45 S&W.
I believe the only pre-1900 S&W never offered in .45 S&W was the Double Action Frontier.
In 1907 S&W introduced the first N frame, the New Century Triple Lock, chambered primarily in .44 S&W Special.
But, again on special order, it could be had in .44 Russian or .45 S&W.
The rarest of all of the Triple Locks, though, are the roughly 20 chambered in .45 Long Colt.
The biggest purchaser of the Army surplus Schofields (sold, I believe, through Hartley and Graham) was the Wells Fargo Company. They cut the barrels back several inches and issued them to their agents.
I'd just like to add that you'd be surprised how long some of the oddball calibers of the 19th century held on.
They didn't make many more 1860 Army conversions than Schofields, yet .44 Colt ammunition was produced well into the 1930s. Same goes for others like the .44 American and various rimfires like the .44 Henry.
They didn't make many more 1860 Army conversions than Schofields, yet .44 Colt ammunition was produced well into the 1930s. Same goes for others like the .44 American and various rimfires like the .44 Henry.
it is always an interesting topic to wonder about the availability of ammo in the time of the old west, So little information survives.
But look at some of the even more oddball calibers that the Webley used. .430, .442, .450, .476. Webleys that were imported into this country from England. (And bootleg copies from Belgium) There must have been an ammo supply for these. At least 2 of these guns rode into the battle of the little big horn, with 2 different officers. So they must have felt confident about getting ammo for these beasties.
Per ammo supplies at a store, we can look at the 1878 battle of Lincoln with Billy the Kid, Part of the McSweens mob was held up in the Tunstall store & McSween house.
According to Army officers "observing" the night battle around the Tunstall store, 1000s of rounds were fired during that part of the battle alone.
But look at some of the even more oddball calibers that the Webley used. .430, .442, .450, .476. Webleys that were imported into this country from England. (And bootleg copies from Belgium) There must have been an ammo supply for these. At least 2 of these guns rode into the battle of the little big horn, with 2 different officers. So they must have felt confident about getting ammo for these beasties.
Per ammo supplies at a store, we can look at the 1878 battle of Lincoln with Billy the Kid, Part of the McSweens mob was held up in the Tunstall store & McSween house.
According to Army officers "observing" the night battle around the Tunstall store, 1000s of rounds were fired during that part of the battle alone.
The New Model Number 3 was chambered for the .45 Schofield (the Schofield revolver was a modified NM No. 3). FWIW, I suspect most of those in that caliber were sold to officers who preferred the S&W to the Colt and didn't have Schofields, yet wanted to use the "free" issue round. I can see no reason any civilian without some Army connection, would buy that gun in that caliber.
When discussing .45 S&W revolvers, note that the .44 Hand Ejector is listed as chambered for the ".45 S&W Special." That is not the .45 Schofield; it is the cartridge collectors call the .45 Model of 1906, which at that time was to be used in testing for a new revolver and considered likely to be adopted as the standard service cartridge if a new revolver was adopted. I have no idea how many HE revolvers were actually made for that round, but I suspect there were not many, like maybe one. A proper chamber for that round would not accept either the .45 Schofield or the .45 Colt.
(In the event, the Model 1906 cartridge was not adopted and no formal revolver trials were conducted. The Army sole-sourced to Colt for the New Service in .45 Colt, which they designated the Model 1909, but made their own ammunition which differed from the .45 Colt.)
Jim
When discussing .45 S&W revolvers, note that the .44 Hand Ejector is listed as chambered for the ".45 S&W Special." That is not the .45 Schofield; it is the cartridge collectors call the .45 Model of 1906, which at that time was to be used in testing for a new revolver and considered likely to be adopted as the standard service cartridge if a new revolver was adopted. I have no idea how many HE revolvers were actually made for that round, but I suspect there were not many, like maybe one. A proper chamber for that round would not accept either the .45 Schofield or the .45 Colt.
(In the event, the Model 1906 cartridge was not adopted and no formal revolver trials were conducted. The Army sole-sourced to Colt for the New Service in .45 Colt, which they designated the Model 1909, but made their own ammunition which differed from the .45 Colt.)
Jim
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I'd just like to add that you'd be surprised how long some of the oddball calibers of the 19th century held on."
Yep. Even though no guns were being produced, there were still guns in circulation, and the ammo companies would get a couple order a year, and minimal demand was just enough to keep production going.
There were two great ammo line cleansings in the United States in the 20th century...
The first was in the run up to American entry into World War I. First the allies started coming to the United States for ammo, and then the United States needed ammo.
Rounds that went out of production then were the lesser liked and loved rimfire rounds like the .25 Short, the .30 Short, and centerfire rounds like the .44 Evans Short.
The more popular of the obsolete rounds in some cases actually stayed in production during the war because it wasn't a total war effort.
The second great cleansing can be thought of as one big one, or two back-to-back smaller ones -- the Great Depression and World War II.
The Great Depression drove ammo sales to levels not before seen in the United States. Quite a few makers barely made it through the depression, others, like Peters, were gobbled up Du Pont/Remington.
That's when most of the rest of the early rounds went out of production -- .401 WSL, .41 Short Rimfire, .41 Long Colt, .45 S&W, .44 Colt, .25 Stevens Rimfire, the various flavors of .22 automatic from Winchester and Remington...
Dozens more rounds became obsolete.
Yep. Even though no guns were being produced, there were still guns in circulation, and the ammo companies would get a couple order a year, and minimal demand was just enough to keep production going.
There were two great ammo line cleansings in the United States in the 20th century...
The first was in the run up to American entry into World War I. First the allies started coming to the United States for ammo, and then the United States needed ammo.
Rounds that went out of production then were the lesser liked and loved rimfire rounds like the .25 Short, the .30 Short, and centerfire rounds like the .44 Evans Short.
The more popular of the obsolete rounds in some cases actually stayed in production during the war because it wasn't a total war effort.
The second great cleansing can be thought of as one big one, or two back-to-back smaller ones -- the Great Depression and World War II.
The Great Depression drove ammo sales to levels not before seen in the United States. Quite a few makers barely made it through the depression, others, like Peters, were gobbled up Du Pont/Remington.
That's when most of the rest of the early rounds went out of production -- .401 WSL, .41 Short Rimfire, .41 Long Colt, .45 S&W, .44 Colt, .25 Stevens Rimfire, the various flavors of .22 automatic from Winchester and Remington...
Dozens more rounds became obsolete.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Jim,
There are numerous know examples of Triple Locks being chambered for the .45 S&W Schofield round, NOT the .45 Special.
It was a special order item, but it was available.
"I can see no reason any civilian without some Army connection, would buy that gun in that caliber."
The same could be said of the .45 Colt.
Why would anyone without a military connection purchase a .45 Colt revolver when the .44-40 was readily available AND was also chambered in a companion Winchester rifle?
Some people just liked it, that's why.
There are numerous know examples of Triple Locks being chambered for the .45 S&W Schofield round, NOT the .45 Special.
It was a special order item, but it was available.
"I can see no reason any civilian without some Army connection, would buy that gun in that caliber."
The same could be said of the .45 Colt.
Why would anyone without a military connection purchase a .45 Colt revolver when the .44-40 was readily available AND was also chambered in a companion Winchester rifle?
Some people just liked it, that's why.
OutlawJoseyWales
New member
Doc,
such a small world. I was in Dade City today, but wasn't looking for guns. Maybe I should have been, you find guns EVERYWHERE.
such a small world. I was in Dade City today, but wasn't looking for guns. Maybe I should have been, you find guns EVERYWHERE.