High tech foreign labor in American jobs?

J

Jffal

New member
The claims of big business and their Washington D.C lackies (or is that lackeys?)
1. The computer information technology (IT) industry created lots of jobs for everyone to benefit from.
2. There is a shortage of American workers to fill these positions.
3. So, we need to import high tech foreign workers to fill all these positions.

I had first read about this situation in America : Who Stole the Dream?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0836213149/qid=962720605/sr=1-2/002-3354620-0767211

a text with its own axe to grind against both major political parties and big business. I have also read about the high tech immigrant program in newspapers. I try to maintain a basic mistrust about anyone who professess to be an authority on the economy because many "experts" tend to mask their bias with incorrectly reported "stats" and facts.

However, the criticism against high tech immigration policies appear to be quite intriguing.

The counter claims of people against these new immigration bills -
1. The computer information technology (IT) industry created far fewer jobs than was expected and helped put alot of people out of business or drive American workers into poorer paying positions. Additionally, situations like the shakeup in internet companies (even the giant brand named Amazon.com has been losing money) indicates that the IT field isn't as solvent as we were originally led to believe.

2.There are quite a few American workers who are qualified to work in these positions, with a number actually being turned down for them because....

3. Imported high tech labor will work for less wages in certain white collar positions than equivalent American workers will.
So, while foreign employees are filling lower paying jobs many Americans consider to be undesirable, a number of foreign nationals get visas and are invited to takeover the better paying positions as well.

I am quite alarmed about it as the policies could greatly limit the options our citizenry and their children have for well paying jobs, regardless of their training. I also recognize that our nation was created by immigrants from all over the world (my ancestors included) and wouldn't want any criticism of such policies, if warranted, degenerating into brutish immigrant bashing.

There are a number of contributors here far more versed in economic theory and reality than myself and I hope you can dissect this situation.

Jeff

Dreier Leads Bipartisan Effort to Address Skilled Worker Shortage
http://www.house.gov/dreier/pr031500.htm
I hope these Deja links work.

Deja.com: Jobs for foreigners, not for citizens
http://x72.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=560852098&CONTEXT=962596365.1939341329&hitnum=77

Deja.com: Re: Visas For High-techs
http://x72.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=640906862&CONTEXT=962596365.1939341329&hitnum=0

Jeff
 
Jeff: There has been a brain-drain from the rest of the world into this country for many decades. The publicity, of course, goes to the Wetback Brigade.

During the 1970s and early 1980s, I know first-hand, a high percentage of the graduate students in the Computer Science Dept. of the Univ.TX at Austin were from India. Ask yourself, "What's a PhD in CS gonna do in India?" Answer, "Nuthin'", so they got jobs here.

Next problem: "Native" US college students tend to shun the sciences. Majors in journalism, philosophy, bus-ad, etc., neither write software nor design circuit boards. A majority of all science/engineering majors, IIRC, are here on student visas.

Finally, consider the problem of the buggy whip: Were cars just now coming into common use, would you want to preserve the jobs in a buggy-whip factory? Technology has unendingly changed the nature of work, from the subsistence farming of 300-400 years ago, through the invention of the plow, reaper and tractor to the steel mills and aircraft factories of the mid-20th century. Regardless of any moral right or wrong, I can guarantee you that change will continue.

I went to four different high schools, and in two different countries. I went to four different colleges/universities before I got my degree. I've had six different employers/careers. I have a certain lack of sympathy for those who can't cope with change or a changing world. :)

As usual, Art
 
We can compete if we want to. I get real tired of those complaining about the foreign cost of labor or cheap labor immigrating here. Sure, cheap stuff is made by cheap labor. Take a look around your hardware store and take note of which countries make the really good stuff. Precision machined tools, whether 1-hole aluminum pencil sharpeners, sawblades, professional chainsaws or really fine guns are predominantly made in countries with costs of labor as high or higher than in America. The solution is pride in workmanship - something we lost a few decades and two generations ago.
 
I was a computer programmer for over 30 years, the last 8 as a contractor.

The great computer shortage was a shortage of CHEAP programmers.

The politicians, at the beck and call of the Internationals, started allowing in foreign programmers, mostly from India, "as long as they were paid the same wage".

I became friends with quite a few of these guys, most all Phds in various disciplines.
They said US headhunter companies would bring them over here on a two-year contract and stack 'em up like cordwood in houses these companies bought.

They got around the equal wage bit by putting them on salary (all contractors were
hourly), work 'em 60 hrs a week, pay 'em a "bonus" of a few hundred bucks at end of contract, and bill the company for 40 hrs.

The employers loved it and soon half or more of the coontracting staff would be foreign nationals.

Any time you see "Global Competition", read
"Who will work the cheapest". It is a race to the bottom.

A side effect of this is that where once only the junk work was farmed out overseas, they are now sending major applications and some R&D to India, etc. They now have their own Silicon valley. It seems these guys who worked for low wages here picked up the expertise and went back home to start up their own software companies.

So much for "Who cares if we lose the factories, we have our software edge". We've now trained our competition. Welcome to the Brave New World of burger flipping.
 
Perhaps we could find a market for precision machined bullets where tolerances for each dimension are measured in thousands of an inch or better and weights to within a tenth of a grain may be the minimum acceptable. Precision bullets machined to exacting requirements out of tungsten would fill a niche for very long range tack driving. The bullets could be recovered from suitable backstops that collected the bullets without damage. The bullets would be so hard and indestructible that they could be reused with a little polishing.
 
As I am in the IT field and work for a large corporation, I agree with Oatka. We began contracting out a few years ago. The primary company subcontraced with another company that brought in Asiatic Indians to fill the positions. The subcontractor kept their passports thus ensuring they did not jump ship to a better paying job. At least until their two year contract expired. The initially filled the DB2 contract with an American that knew what he was doing and was very good. But, was too expensive for them. He was replaced with an Indian that we trained and worked for a lower price. We now have Russians filling the contract. I don't care what people say. Contracting out does not work and costs more.
 
It has become common wisdom that "free trade" promotes peace and understanding. All I can observe is real income decline in the US labor force, increased corruption and income polarization in the third world, and the consolidation of power by authoritarian and totalitarian governments.

What's wrong with this picture?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oatka:
I was a computer programmer for over 30 years, the last 8 as a contractor.

The great computer shortage was a shortage of CHEAP programmers.

The politicians, at the beck and call of the Internationals, started allowing in foreign programmers, mostly from India, "as long as they were paid the same wage".

I became friends with quite a few of these guys, most all Phds in various disciplines.
They said US headhunter companies would bring them over here on a two-year contract and stack 'em up like cordwood in houses these companies bought.

They got around the equal wage bit by putting them on salary (all contractors were
hourly), work 'em 60 hrs a week, pay 'em a "bonus" of a few hundred bucks at end of contract, and bill the company for 40 hrs.

The employers loved it and soon half or more of the coontracting staff would be foreign nationals.

Any time you see "Global Competition", read
"Who will work the cheapest". It is a race to the bottom.

A side effect of this is that where once only the junk work was farmed out overseas, they are now sending major applications and some R&D to India, etc. They now have their own Silicon valley. It seems these guys who worked for low wages here picked up the expertise and went back home to start up their own software companies.

So much for "Who cares if we lose the factories, we have our software edge". We've now trained our competition.

Welcome to the Brave New World of burger flipping.

[/quote]

That is quite true, unfortunately, for all of us here in the USA.

According to James Hoffa Jr., the Teamsters figures come out to a minimum loss of a million _good paying_ jobs lost to overseas (read China) over the next decade.

And that estimate dosen't even include the major losses of decent jobs, lower wages and non-existant benefits to the flood of illegal (read Mexican) mostly illiterate, uneducated "workers" presently flooding the southwestern United States, including the PRK. :(

Can we all say: "Recepción al Wal-Mart norteño de Méjico, Amigos"?
 
You know, three or four years back I started the process of legally migrating to the USA.

Couldn't do it. Why? I would have had to "prove" that I was in an occupation and would be doing a job that couldn't be done by an American, otherwise, no chance.

Ain't much call in the US for burnt-out editors of Australian-English! :D

But seriously, we're experiencing much the same thing here, only our workers mainly come from Asia.

B
 
As the son of a blue-collar kind of guy who watched our family income fall by over 60% in the late 70s to early 80s, I have only one thing to say:

HA HA!
 
I came from Canada a few years ago and attended University in both the US and Canada. The problem is that colleges and universities in the US have gotten too soft on students so that more students could get degrees.
I personally took all my difficult courses like Organic Chemistry, Biochemistry, and Physics in the US because I knew they would be easier here(I used to live right on the Border between Washington State and British Columbia). The difference in the academic standards between Canadian and American Universities was somewhat disturbing, as I tend to fall into the category of people who believe everything in the US is #1 in the world. Many of my friends who had athletic scholarships to American Colleges also noted how easy the US colleges seemed in comparison to Canadian Universities.
As long as the Universities and Colleges in the US continue to play politics and grant as many degrees as possible, without setting high standards, graduates will continue to be underqualified for their prospective professions and the mass importations will continue.
 
What Oatka said also applies to the aerospace industry, engineers on down.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Piggy,
Thank you for your post.

Bruce,

Repeat after me:

"This is a pen.
I am a boy.
My sister is younger than my mother.
Is your father older than your brother?"

If you can do that a zillion times a day you can always come over here to Japan and teach English.

And that goes for anyone who has a four year degree in anything, is a native English speaker, and has a pulse and steady respirations.
 
Your are quite welcome here, Oleg.

Such topics bring the xenophobes out of the wood work.

I once sat next to an real American who was complaining the the valedictorian at my kid's middle school graduation was of Viet Namese descent.

Go teach your "standard" American student for awhile. Go teach your All-American sports hero who you drool over at the "game".

When we have our values straight, then complain.

What a crock. Also, you dudes who are always raving about capitalism and free enterprise, getting cheap labour is classic.

[This message has been edited by Glenn E. Meyer (edited July 05, 2000).]
 
From the economic perspective, immigrants are just another commodity, much like oil.

From the social perspective, they help to keep RKBA as they remember what happens otherwise.

From my perspective, I like being here. Yesterday, I celebrated the 4th at a home of my friends...of the six adults present only one wasn't a first or second generation immigrant. It was also telling that we ended up celebrating at the range, right after the BBQ and home-made fireworks. Interestingly enough, the sole "native" was a leftist till his now-wife educated him. I am not so much peeved by the "go home" sentiments as puzzled...does this mean the Indians get to re-inherit this continent and all ya palefaces are hopping aboard for a trip back "home"?

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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
I don't think it's the patriotic freedom lovers like Oleg that people fear. Many fear that certain foreigners do not share their ideals as they pertain to issues of freedom. They fear that far too many immigrants are simply here for America's milk and honey, and not for her freedom. I know a few liberal Canadians from the left coast who are working in the computer industry in Houston and silicon valley. Only one has any respect for the RKBA and even he thinks I have too many guns. I personally wish these folks would pack their bags and head back north even though they are White males. I would much rather have someone from Pakistan or India move to this Country, who cherishes freedom more than $$$, than some White Brit's/ Canadian's/Australian's who are hostile to our cause. In general, as I said, I do not think it is so much an issue of race when it comes to immigration, as it is a question of whether or not the immigrants hold the values and ideals which are consistent with American heritage. In my experience, those that honor American traditions are typically welcomed with open arms. In my opinion, those that are hostile to our freedoms, should not be allowed to reap the benefits which our freedoms provide.
 
I agree, who cares what they look like, what color thier skin is, and what color their eyes are. It is stupid to hate your friends because they don't look like you and be more accepting of your enemies because they do. An American is someone that understands and embraces the qualities of liberty as set forth by the constitution and many of the men that created and signed it. Don't forget it was white English that we had to fight so hard to get these liberties. People don't have sense because they are white, they have sense because they are smart.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth
 
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