What is the highest quality 1851 Navy clone on the market today? What I'm looking for will see a lot of shooting, thousands of shots in it's life time with lower-powered target loads. My predominant concern is with the mechanics of the weapon, how well it will stand up. Just about everyone who is into cap and ball revolver shooting realizes that you have to be a gunsmith to fully enjoy these guns. What I'm looking for is something that will stand up to a lot of shooting but won't need to be re-timed every few hundred shots or need replacement internals (i.e. new springs, hand, bolt). From what I've read on similar sites, b.p. revolvers, regardless of manufacturer, usually require a little tuning or fiddling right from the box and throughout their lives. I want something along the lines of a modern revolver, which for the most part are shoot 'em and not worry about 'em types. I realize that the archaic design of these revolvers has much to do with their general mechanical stability and durability. I'm just hoping to find a Colt-style b.p. revolver as durable as possible, either factory stock or after market "custom", and I'm willing to pay up to $700.00 for one. Any suggestions on this topic, or ideas to make a stock revolver as durable and trouble-free as possible, will be GREATLY appreciated.
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High-quality Colt clones
- Thread starter Dithsoer
- Start date
Well, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.
Anecdotal evidence says that Cimarron's Ubertis are the most likely to be the best quality 1851's around. Notice the qualifiers: "most likely to be". I don't believe I've ever seen anyone complain about a Cimarron Uberti out of the box.
Long term - well, the newer guns appear to be lasting longer, but it's still a bit of a crap shoot. There just isn't any clear evidence of a Colt replica that meets the long term reliability of a Ruger Old Army or one of the USFA guns.
I've been very lucky with my Ubertis - some are over 20 years old and have had moderately heavy use with no major rebuilds. However, all have been 'tinkered with'. I smooth and polish the action parts on all of them and even replace parts just because I want to, so I can't say they've never needed work.
I'd say that the best Colt replicas are Cimarron Uberti, but I don't think they meet your standard yet. Some maintenance is going to be required. You're going to either have to go to the Ruger or USFA or lower your standard a bit if a Colt is really what you want.
Anecdotal evidence says that Cimarron's Ubertis are the most likely to be the best quality 1851's around. Notice the qualifiers: "most likely to be". I don't believe I've ever seen anyone complain about a Cimarron Uberti out of the box.
Long term - well, the newer guns appear to be lasting longer, but it's still a bit of a crap shoot. There just isn't any clear evidence of a Colt replica that meets the long term reliability of a Ruger Old Army or one of the USFA guns.
I've been very lucky with my Ubertis - some are over 20 years old and have had moderately heavy use with no major rebuilds. However, all have been 'tinkered with'. I smooth and polish the action parts on all of them and even replace parts just because I want to, so I can't say they've never needed work.
I'd say that the best Colt replicas are Cimarron Uberti, but I don't think they meet your standard yet. Some maintenance is going to be required. You're going to either have to go to the Ruger or USFA or lower your standard a bit if a Colt is really what you want.
Get a second generation Colt. The parts were made by Uberti but final fit and finish was done by Colt. The third generations(signature series) are Colt in name only. You still may have to fit a new handspring or bolt every few years. Actually any newer Uberti or Pietta will hold up very well but it may need some slicking up to your expectations out of the box but the 2nd gen. Colt is the way to go. The Ubertis and Piettas hold up pretty well in CAS and believe you me they get well used.
Raider2000
New member
I may not have 1000's of shots through my Pietta 1860 Army but I do have some where close to 1000 "or more" shots in the 25 years I've had it & so far I've replaced the hand, trigger/bolt spring, & tuned the hammer & trigger arangement to give me a crisp 3.2LB pull then had them heat treated which I think is why they have lasted so long & still look like new.
I only shoot 3 loads in her.
28gr. FFFG Goex B. P. 147gr. .457 Ball, grease over chambers.
25gr. FFFG Goex B. P. 190gr. .457 conical, groves greased
25gr. FFFG Goex B. P. thin wad, 12-15 pieces of lead BB's, thick over wad, wax over chambers.
Fairly light by comparrison to a Ruger or Remington shooter but during the time of the War of Northern Agression, that first 2 loadings was pretty standard & were deffinitly man stopers in the day but for my informal shooting they are pretty good & so far my Colt Replica has held up pretty nicely...
I only shoot 3 loads in her.
28gr. FFFG Goex B. P. 147gr. .457 Ball, grease over chambers.
25gr. FFFG Goex B. P. 190gr. .457 conical, groves greased
25gr. FFFG Goex B. P. thin wad, 12-15 pieces of lead BB's, thick over wad, wax over chambers.
Fairly light by comparrison to a Ruger or Remington shooter but during the time of the War of Northern Agression, that first 2 loadings was pretty standard & were deffinitly man stopers in the day but for my informal shooting they are pretty good & so far my Colt Replica has held up pretty nicely...
Oops
I think I screwed up.
Absolutely get a Second Generation Colt. I own a Third Generation 3rd Model Dragoon and it is absolutely a dream to look, hold, and shoot. I completely forgot to consider the later Colts because they aren't being made anymore. But, so what? They are available (read as 'expensive') and meet your criteria.
I think I screwed up.
Absolutely get a Second Generation Colt. I own a Third Generation 3rd Model Dragoon and it is absolutely a dream to look, hold, and shoot. I completely forgot to consider the later Colts because they aren't being made anymore. But, so what? They are available (read as 'expensive') and meet your criteria.
I was thinking of maybe going this route. Get a Cimarron/Uberti. Replace the hand/spring, bolt and trigger/bolt spring with high quality after market parts meant for the S.A.A. ( possibly original Colt spare parts put out for the 3rd. generation S.A.A. or an after market alternative) and have them fitted. I could then have the frame, barrel and cylinder sent out for heat-treating. I recall seeing an ad in Guns and Ammo a few years ago offering this service but can't remember who it was. They specialized in exactly this sort of thing, heat-treating cap and ball revolvers. Does anyone know of someone offering this service today? I believe that this would be the closest thing possible to what I'm looking for, at least until USFA comes out with Colt clones.
By the way, are the internals used in Cimarron/Uberti's cap and ball revolvers the same ones that are used in the Model P, Richards-Mason conversion, etc? Or are the parts used in the cartridge guns of a better quality?
By the way, are the internals used in Cimarron/Uberti's cap and ball revolvers the same ones that are used in the Model P, Richards-Mason conversion, etc? Or are the parts used in the cartridge guns of a better quality?
The conversion parts should be the same but the 3rd gen. parts are no better than Uberti parts. Colt had nothing to do with the building of these guns and they're really not considered to be true Colt's. The 2nd gen. are considered to be Colt because Colt did the final fit and finish in Hartford. Not saying Uberti parts are bad, they'll hold up a long time as will Pietta's made within the last ten years.
I don't know how the colts performs, I only own a uberti, but I can say that during the last 5 years I've shot many rounds trough my 1851,in CAS shooting and my son use it now for CAS shooting. The only parts I've changed were one triger and stop springs and the Hand and spring...
Wolf Lies Down
New member
Colt Model 1851 Navy clone, .36 caliber
--
-I don't know if you were talking .36 caliber or what, but I assume so.
Anyway, here's what I would do in your situation:
Don't buy an expensive gun or two expensive guns.
First of all, the Uberti 1851 clone is the better of the two ("two" meaning the Pietta gun and the Uberti gun). BUT, the there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Pietta-manufactured gun. I believe the Uberti is CNC machined vs. the Pietta being a forged casting(??) [someone that knows for sure, please chime in here]. I marvel at the beauty and balance of my two Pietta 1851 Navys every time I see them or handle them.
Anyway, what I'd do is get two of the cheaper Pietta guns (check online at Cabellas, Midway, Bass Pro Shop, etc.). Get the cheapest ones. If they online data is not complete, call them up and get info you need. If you live close to one these big stores, swing by there and get them to pull every one of the guns out of stock and go through them until you find the best looking guns.
Taking the guns apart and reassembling them is quite easy. Get online to Brownells, Midway or somebody and get a nice gunsmiths screwdriver set, a Brownells 1" brass/nylon faced gunsmith's hammer, a few gunsmiths Arkansas stones and get a set of inexpensive needle files somewhere (buy the good ones later, because you'll tear up the cheap first set). Also, for the files, get a fine file card (a brush made especially to clean junk out of a file's teeth) or a soft stainless brush to keep them clean and get a box of white kids' chalk to fill the teeth with. The chalk keeps metal filings from clogging up the file, which can damage your work and the file. Keep the files clean and chalked up real well.
Get some online info files and learn how to tune the guns up yourself. Some companies, such as EMF sell a replacement parts kit for the Pietta Navy consisting of a hammer, trigger, hand (complete), bolt spring and mainspring, I believe, for about 25 or 30 bucks or less. Get one or two of those to keep available in case you screw up one of your parts Now get to work tuning up your guns yourself! You will have infinitly more fun than dealing with some "original" Colt brand weapons that cost so much more and which you are reluctant to work on. The Navy Colt (and all these single action revolvers, really) are pretty straight-forward and simple. However they can be deceptive in this regard, because there is a degree of precision required on your part in order for these guns to function properly and safely. So, learn all you can about them online and at the library to ensure you know the extent of what you must do once you take them apart.
--
-I don't know if you were talking .36 caliber or what, but I assume so.
Anyway, here's what I would do in your situation:
Don't buy an expensive gun or two expensive guns.
First of all, the Uberti 1851 clone is the better of the two ("two" meaning the Pietta gun and the Uberti gun). BUT, the there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Pietta-manufactured gun. I believe the Uberti is CNC machined vs. the Pietta being a forged casting(??) [someone that knows for sure, please chime in here]. I marvel at the beauty and balance of my two Pietta 1851 Navys every time I see them or handle them.
Anyway, what I'd do is get two of the cheaper Pietta guns (check online at Cabellas, Midway, Bass Pro Shop, etc.). Get the cheapest ones. If they online data is not complete, call them up and get info you need. If you live close to one these big stores, swing by there and get them to pull every one of the guns out of stock and go through them until you find the best looking guns.
Taking the guns apart and reassembling them is quite easy. Get online to Brownells, Midway or somebody and get a nice gunsmiths screwdriver set, a Brownells 1" brass/nylon faced gunsmith's hammer, a few gunsmiths Arkansas stones and get a set of inexpensive needle files somewhere (buy the good ones later, because you'll tear up the cheap first set). Also, for the files, get a fine file card (a brush made especially to clean junk out of a file's teeth) or a soft stainless brush to keep them clean and get a box of white kids' chalk to fill the teeth with. The chalk keeps metal filings from clogging up the file, which can damage your work and the file. Keep the files clean and chalked up real well.
Get some online info files and learn how to tune the guns up yourself. Some companies, such as EMF sell a replacement parts kit for the Pietta Navy consisting of a hammer, trigger, hand (complete), bolt spring and mainspring, I believe, for about 25 or 30 bucks or less. Get one or two of those to keep available in case you screw up one of your parts Now get to work tuning up your guns yourself! You will have infinitly more fun than dealing with some "original" Colt brand weapons that cost so much more and which you are reluctant to work on. The Navy Colt (and all these single action revolvers, really) are pretty straight-forward and simple. However they can be deceptive in this regard, because there is a degree of precision required on your part in order for these guns to function properly and safely. So, learn all you can about them online and at the library to ensure you know the extent of what you must do once you take them apart.
well, both Pietta and Uberti are made of forged steel and not casted. In the past Uberti had a reputation of using muche better steel quality than Pietta and their barrel were much better made. The last years, with increasing sell of PB revolver and CAS sports, Uberti's quality went a bit down (they had to produce more and changed theyr steel dealer to get better prices) while Pietta's quality became much better, so actualy there is no QUIET a big difference between Pietta and Uberti anymore. Pietta is now offering some "target" or "special" editions at least as good as Uberti. People who handled old made Uberti revolver vs the newer models will understand what I speak about. The advantage of Uberti is that their parts and cotes are closer to original models than Pietta.
Why do straight Uberti's (non Cimarron) cost so much more than Pietta's? By the way, does anyone know of someone offering heat-treating of frames, barrels, cylinders, etc.?
Wolf Lies Down
That's exactly what I've been doing. I've picked up a few books on Colt style revolvers and have been doing the parts replacement and timing myself. I LOVE filing and I always use hand files over power tools. Consequently, I've developed a bit of skill over the years, to the point that I make my own replacement parts, including the hand/spring assembly and cylinder bolt. I heat treat all parts with Kasenit. I was just hoping to find a repro that didn't need all of this extra work. Another idea that I had was to try converting a Colt-style cap and ball to the coil-spring setup found on Cimarron's Model P and on Ruger revolvers. Instead of a flat spring connected to the hand, they have a tiny hole drilled through the back of the frame with a small coil spring in it that submits pressure on the hand, with a tiny screw that keeps the spring in place. One of my gunsmithing books gives instructions on how to convert SAAs to this method. That would be one less thing to worry about, although I think that the flat hand spring is more reliable than many of us would at first believe. In my experience, what usually breaks this spring isn't wear and tear but rather a cap, or fragment of one, gets caught behind or in front of it, snapping it off when the piece is next cocked.
Then again, I've heard reports from people who have fired their Pietta's and Uberti's over a thousand times with only the nipples being replaced.
Wolf Lies Down
That's exactly what I've been doing. I've picked up a few books on Colt style revolvers and have been doing the parts replacement and timing myself. I LOVE filing and I always use hand files over power tools. Consequently, I've developed a bit of skill over the years, to the point that I make my own replacement parts, including the hand/spring assembly and cylinder bolt. I heat treat all parts with Kasenit. I was just hoping to find a repro that didn't need all of this extra work. Another idea that I had was to try converting a Colt-style cap and ball to the coil-spring setup found on Cimarron's Model P and on Ruger revolvers. Instead of a flat spring connected to the hand, they have a tiny hole drilled through the back of the frame with a small coil spring in it that submits pressure on the hand, with a tiny screw that keeps the spring in place. One of my gunsmithing books gives instructions on how to convert SAAs to this method. That would be one less thing to worry about, although I think that the flat hand spring is more reliable than many of us would at first believe. In my experience, what usually breaks this spring isn't wear and tear but rather a cap, or fragment of one, gets caught behind or in front of it, snapping it off when the piece is next cocked.
Then again, I've heard reports from people who have fired their Pietta's and Uberti's over a thousand times with only the nipples being replaced.