Hidden agenda Hate crime legislation

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ruger45

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THE HIDDEN AGENDA LURKING BENEATH
HATE CRIMES LEGISLATION

By: Shelley McKinney

It's the strangest thing, but trying to get hold of the essence of what the PC brigade call "hate crimes" is like trying to grab a bar of soap swimming in a bathtub full of canola oil -- just when you think you've got a grip, the pesky thing goes slip-slidin' away once again and darts to the other side of the tub. I read a great many articles on this topic, yet kept coming up empty-handed, with odd little black specks floating in my vision from spending too much time peering into my computer monitor. Incidentally, this would be the moment to express relief that my ISP provides me with unlimited Internet access, but there are more important things at hand.

I finally found "the essence" today.
I'm telling you, if you ever want to punish yourself (whether you deserve it or not) go to the major Internet news networks and key the term "hate crimes" into their search fields. You will be treated to the dreariest assortment of articles about gay students being tortured, black people being tortured, and religious folk being gunned down and/or having their places of worship reduced to piles of smoking rubble you could ever hope to NOT see. There couldn't be a better topic for proving that the human race is indeed a fallen one, suffering from severely challenged fundamental decency right from the heart. The heart of the writing lies in the research, however, and when I began reading about two of the most widely-reported murder cases in recent years and trying to link the deaths of James Byrd and Matthew Sheppard under the heading of "hate crimes," what I believe I discovered was unnerving, to say the very least.

What I gleaned from all those depressing articles was this: the murders of Matthew Sheppard and James Byrd were horrible, unthinkable; the acts of a sub-human species. To see their killers' pictures on the newspaper articles I downloaded made me cringe with horror: These men all looked so normal to have such blackness hidden in their souls. Shootings in churches, burning crosses in the front yards of quiet and dignified black families, and violent acts of anti-Semitism shouldn't even belong to our place in time...surely that kind of ugliness was done away with when Hitler got blasted out of that bunker, but apparently not.

As I read, however, all I could think was that these things were criminal acts that needed to be punished accordingly, preferably, in my opinion, by being fried like a tater-tot in some particularly sinister looking electric chair -- they just needed to be dealt with, not elevated by giving them some special code name, as if killing one type of person was bad, but it was even worse to kill another type. I have to admit that I just didn't get it, until I read this press release from Reuters. The dateline for this story is Atlanta, October 1999.

"President Clinton tried to build support [in a speech on] Friday for proposed hate-crime legislation that would broaden federal prosecution of violent crimes to those motivated by the fact that the victim is gay. [This would] give federal prosecutors the power to prosecute certain hate crimes committed because of a victim's sexual orientation, gender, or disability."

I found this very confusing, because haven't people always been punished for these crimes? It's never been okay to kill anybody here in the United States, homo- or heterosexual, able bodied or disabled, male or female. I thought that was supposed to be the point of the laws regulating people's murderous impulses, and I might add that capital offenses like murder used to be dealt with much more harshly in times past.

No, I really believe what we're seeing here with all this nonsensical talk about how we need more legislation for hate crimes is just a cover up for the real agenda, which is special political and social treatment for homosexuals. Otherwise, how can anybody explain why we need more legislation to make it possible to punish an act (murder) that is already illegal? It makes more sense to me to just enforce the laws we already have. Call me a kooky, right-wing dreamer, but considering the fact that the average up-the-river jaunt for killing a fellow human being is a mere seven years, I can't help but hope wistfully that the death penalty will someday be re-instated in all fifty states. Capital punishment has its own grim way of deterring people from committing murder. Nowadays, doing hard time isn't seen as too much of a chore, what with cable television and exercise rooms and conjugal visits in the pen; it even has a certain cachet on the streets.

So I had a real light-bulb-over-the-head moment when I realized what President Clinton and certain Senators and a certain powerful lobby are really trying to put across. Maybe Clinton views this as his legacy: that it is a naughty, ill-tempered thing to kill anybody, but if you kill a gay person, you're just evil, that's all. And you will be punished to the maximum extent of the law for killing a member of the group whose civil liberties transcend those of all us crummy, regular ol' citizen types out here. I find this frightening, to see our culture launching itself with such merry insouciance right smack down into the middle of George Orwell's Animal Farm, where "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Senator Edward Kennedy's Hate Crime Amendment (which is co-sponsored by such PC luminaries as Tom Daschle, Barbara Boxer, and Dianne Feinstein) will "enhance federal enforcement of hate crimes," and if that makes you say "Whaa-?!" you're not alone. As I said in a previous paragraph, we could "enhance" the existing laws by actually enforcing them, but that's just too easy for the PC crowd. When you start reading a lot of this hate crime stuff, the more you start to get the sense that it is all about people not being "mean-spirited" to homosexuals in any way, shape, or form, more than it's about how it's wrong to kill any person at all. I begin to cynically believe that race, gender, and disability are just mentioned as a cover for the real issue. So what I want to know is where amendments like this one will lead, because not all hate crimes result in the death of a member of a protected group.

It's not unreasonable to think that sometime in the future it will be considered a "hate crime" for the Boy Scouts of America to not wish to have homosexual Scoutmasters. Consider the recent news out of Connecticut about the Boy Scouts: they are no longer a charity eligible for state payroll deductions because of their stance on homosexuals. That's a beginning, isn't it? Or perhaps certain churches and ministers will be hauled into court for refusing to sanction homosexual "marriages," or for not wanting to employ a homosexual youth director. The United Methodist Church is already coming under fire for the position on homosexuality it took earlier in May at the General Conference. They merely said something to the effect of "homosexuality is probably not God's perfect will for any person," yet that decision at the conference has led to some blistering comments from gay groups and more liberal-minded Methodists, more than several of whom are ordained Methodist ministers. Some of those ministers have defiantly stated that they will continue to perform same-sex "union" ceremonies, despite the disapproval of the governing body. The feds aren't chasing people down yet, but there seems to be a disturbing trend in that direction.

Oh, and this can lead into all kinds of scary stuff, like: "Could I get in trouble for saying that, as an evangelical Christian, I believe homosexuality to be immoral?" Not yet, but there are ominous signs that that day is coming. According to an article on hate crimes I accessed via the Concerned Women for America website called "Hate Crimes Laws: Making Thoughts a Crime" the un-named author of the article commented that, where hate crimes laws already exist, the homosexual lobby -- a huge and powerful political force -- is pushing to have "sexual orientation" added to these laws, which is what the President was referring to in his Atlanta speech. The article stated that this could change the entire face of our American civil rights, because civil rights have traditionally been based upon things which are immutable, or un-changeable, such as skin color, gender, and disability. To add "sexual orientation" to this list of immutables means that homosexuality is also immutable -- and yet no genetic scientist has ever been able to prove that this is so. If "sexual orientation" could be added to the legislation, and that legislation is subsequently passed, then the gay-rights lobby has what it has been yearning for: legal "proof" that people are homosexual from birth. This would classify them as a minority, like blacks or Hispanics. "Adding sexual orientation to hate crimes laws wrongly legitimizes the claim that homosexuality is immutable rather than chosen behavior. Therefore, those who hold religious or moral objections to homosexuality could be prosecuted for 'hate'," writes the author. Oh, how I wish that this, like Animal Farm, was a work of fiction, but it isn't. It's reality, it's beginning to happen now, and our First Amendment right to free speech and free thought is being whittled away.

The problem I have with the homosexual lobby is not with their homosexuality, which I view as just another sin in the long list of sins that every single one of us has committed: it's their arrogance that raises my hackles. The essence of the hate crimes legislation is to force an acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle on a largely unwilling American populace. I know a lot of evangelical Christians, and I don't know a single one who thinks that homosexuals should be persecuted, hated, or murdered. I don't know a single person who wasn't horrified by those disgusting "Christian" people who were holding up signs at Sheppard's funeral that read "God Hates Fags." But even that isn't good enough for the homosexual lobby. They will bear no dissent, and anyone who suggests that homosexuality is morally wrong had better be ready for his own personal onslaught of hate. I've been aware for a long time, as have you, no doubt, that there are certain kinds of bigotry which are acceptable and very politically correct, and it is very PC to vilify anyone who doesn't embrace homosexuality with joy. Our very opinions stand the risk of being monitored and judged by the PC crowd, and even right now, reasonable debate simply won't be tolerated.

Radio talk-show host "Dr. Laura" Schlessinger has come under fire much more recently because of her views on this subject. Homosexual activist groups have been lobbying relentlessly to have her upcoming television show canceled before the first episode is even broadcast in September. This is nothing but the slimiest form of censorship, especially since the show's theme is slated to be on how to develop one's parenting skills. To hear the activists screech, you'd think that Laura Schlessinger was some sort of neo-Nazi punk. In fact, all she said was this: "If you're gay or a lesbian, it's a biological error that inhibits you from relating normally to the opposite sex. The fact that you are intelligent, creative, and valuabe is all true. The error is in your inability to relate sexually...to a member of the opposite sex." GLAAD (Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation) and other gay "watchdog" groups have made it clear that they will brook no dissent, and they are blatantly working to shut Schlessinger down.

Also suffering for the consequences of having the nerve to speak his own opinion is Senator Trent Lott. In June 1998, Senator Lott was a guest on The Armstrong Williams Show and was asked by the host if he believed homosexuality to be a sin. Senator Lott replied, "Yeah, it is. [But] you should love that person. You should not try to mistreat them or treat them like outcasts." His opinion, right? This is an opinion that many people happen to share, but when you're dealing with the PC crowd, you have to realize that just accepting the person isn't enough: you have to accept the lifestyle, or else.

Brian Bond, the executive director of the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund, responded with a remarkable reply, just oozing love and tolerance and warm fuzzy feelings: "Lott's mean-spirited pronouncements are part of an escalating pattern of political gay-baiting...hate rhetoric from anti-gay extremists and those who pander to them." My word, you'd think that Senator Lott had said that all homosexuals should be publicly executed! There were equally open-minded remarks from Deborah Kolodny and Rebecca Isaacs, both of whom are activists in the gay-rights movement. Do you see Brian Bond as a fervent supporter of your First Amendment rights, should you happen to concur with Senator Lott's or Laura Schlessinger's opinions? No, these PC pin-heads feel that they have the right to express whatever "mean-spirited" and "hate-mongering" opinion they want to, and everybody else should just shuddup.

For the record, I personally believe that homosexuality is immoral and not an "alternative lifestyle." However, this is a very complicated issue, and while I don't believe that homosexuals should be given minority status, I also don't think that they should be hated and persecuted. I find it ironic that the opinion I just stated qualifies me as a hater and persecuter of homosexuals, but -- for right now -- it's the opinion I'm allowed to have. And I certainly don't think that anyone should ever be murdered; I'd be very pleased if all decent citizens could die a peaceful death at age 93. No one ever should die the way Matthew Sheppard did, just as no one should ever die the way James Byrd did, whether they're gay, straight, black, white, or royal blue like Tinky-Winky. It's probably a darn good thing that I'm not in charge of handing down justice, because my way of dealing with the brutes that killed these two men would have been to take them out to the courthouse parking lot and have them gunned down like rabid dogs immediately after the "guilty" verdict was read, simply because the ways in which these particular crimes were carried out were so unspeakable.

No matter how swiftly and surely the subsequent justice is handed down, it will obviously never bring either of these two men back to their families. So in the end, it doesn't matter nearly so much what they were as it matters who they were: they both deserved the opportunity to live their lives for better or for worse in whatever manner they chose because -- transcending gayness or blackness --- they were human beings, created in the image of God. For this reason alone, they both deserved much better than what they got. They deserved to live. And neither of them needed hate crimes legislation to make that so.>>>

Patriot.45
www.jpfo.org www.jbs.org


Wanted to get your thougts on these I basically agree with the editor.

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"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
www.eaglesup.com

THE HATE CRIMES MASQUERADE


Within the past year hate crimes has become an issue that many have heard about but few have closely examined. For several years, Traditional Values Coalition has been looking into the issue and carefully researching the various legislative initiatives that are being proposed. Soon, we discovered that much of the noise was little more than a masquerade to conceal a very dangerous agenda.

Today, the hate crimes masquerade is frantically propelling itself into the private lives of American citizens by riding the emotional outrage of several tragic incidents. These incidents were terrible and Traditional Values Coalition opposes all acts of violence. In fact, TVC believes that the perpetrators of these crimes should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, which in all of the cases would be life in prison or the death sentence.

HOSTING THE MASQUERADE:
The tragic murders of James Byrd and Matthew Shepherd has ignited a call for the federal government to pass federal hate crimes legislation (HR 1082 & S 622 & the Kennedy Amendment to the Senate Commerce-Justice-State Appropriations Bill). This proposed legislation became the host of the masquerade. Subtle, emotional and seemingly tough on crime the legislation is literally a Pandora's box for families, churches, schools, state courts and the Constitution.

REMOVING THE MASK:
Examining Hate Crimes Legislation.
In order to understand the dangers of hate crimes legislation one must first understand the current federal law.
The current law states that it is a federal offense to violently interfere with anyone's exercise of certain federally protected activities (elections, serving on a jury, attending school...) because of that person's race, religion, or ethnicity.

THE HATE CRIMES "LAW":
The proposed hate crimes legislation seeks to amend the existing law, expanding federal jurisdiction, so that all acts of violence which are motivated by hate toward a person because of his or her "real or perceived" membership in a specific group would be a federal offense. The new law adds sexual orientation, gender and disability into the list of specially protected groups. Unfortunately hate crimes legislation doesn't end by simply changing the criminal code. It also sets aside unlimited funds to be allocated for educational initiatives designed "to prevent juvenile hate crimes." Within these educational initiatives there resides an anti-Christian theme that denigrates religion and teaches that Christians are hate criminals.

THE PROBLEMS:
At first, the hate crimes legislation may seem like a congressional initiative that is tough on crime. But in reality the bill has some serious constitutional problems.
1. Anti Christian: denigrates and teaches against Christian beliefs.
2. Unconstitutional: expands federal jurisdiction into the activities of the state and local government.
3. Unnecessary: the violence which is "criminalized" by the bill is already prohibited by the criminal code of every state.
4. Ineffective: federal courts are already overloaded.
5. Intrusive: forces prosecutors to act as thought police.
6. Unfair:elevates one class of victims into a special protected status.

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"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruger45:



THE PROBLEMS:
At first, the hate crimes legislation may seem like a congressional initiative that is tough on crime. But in reality the bill has some serious constitutional problems.
1. Anti Christian: denigrates and teaches against Christian beliefs.
2. Unconstitutional: expands federal jurisdiction into the activities of the state and local government.
3. Unnecessary: the violence which is "criminalized" by the bill is already prohibited by the criminal code of every state.
4. Ineffective: federal courts are already overloaded.
5. Intrusive: forces prosecutors to act as thought police.
6. Unfair:elevates one class of victims into a special protected status.

[/quote]

So many issues, so little space...

In the first place, the constitutional problems continue to be the root of all evil on Capitol Hill, and at the state level. By ignoring that (at times) inconvenient document, our "law"makers set themselves up for exactly the kind of repercussions that we're seeing in the wake of Apprendi v., New Jersey; the Supremes' decision that a NJ hate crime statute allowing hate crime evidence to be introduced at sentencing, rather than in the trial phase, is unConstitutional. (It's that annoying "due process" thing.) Hate crime consideration is simply affirmative action under a different flag, and deserves to be vacated the same way as race-based voting districts and college admission preferences.

As to specific problems:

1. Anti Christian: denigrates and teaches against Christian beliefs.

Christians are the whipping-boys of the left, and the "nor prohibiting the free exercize thereof" portion of the Establishment Clause be damned.

2. Unconstitutional: expands federal jurisdiction into the activities of the state and local government.

Even without the intrusion of the feds, the 14th Amendment requires equal protection by states under the laws. That means the killers of Matthew Shepard and James Byrd get treated the same as someone who kills for money, passion, or simply "sport."

3. Unnecessary: the violence which is "criminalized" by the bill is already prohibited by the criminal code of every state.

"But some are more equal than others..."

4. Ineffective: federal courts are already overloaded.

Perhaps, then, hate crimes will go the way of laws against criminal use (or procurement) of firearms, and become "inconvenient" to prosecute...

5. Intrusive: forces prosecutors to act as thought police.

Welcome to the world of the Politically Correct. Ugly, ain't it?

6. Unfair:elevates one class of victims into a special protected status.

See above about Affirmative Action.


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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken

[This message has been edited by SAGewehr (edited July 24, 2000).]
 
Wellllll...for the most part, I agree.

However, there's a nasty streak in human nature that says that when a particular member of society is labeled somehow "unpopular", a lot of weak-minded people who otherwise wouldn't do anything "follow the pack" and turn on the unpopular individual.

In some cases, very violently. Do NOT try and tell me it doesn't happen.

There's a lot of customs against gays, and still a fair number of laws that discriminate against them. That creates a climate whereby they're "targeted" in many people's heads, and that in turn increases the violence when the scummiest section of society takes this "societal displeasure" to it's logical extreme.

Hate-crime legislation is a way for society to specifically label the targeted group as "NOT to be targeted".

All that said, ending the discrimination would be a better plan more in line with equal protection and personal liberty. And if there's still violence, well hell, let 'em pack.

----------------

OK, side note. You might realize I took this a bit personally. No, I'm not gay. I was one of the kids at school that didn't have quite as many social skills, had my nose in a book a lot, wasn't real coordinated. Do I need to spell out what happened next? Do I need to detail the ulcer in the 6th grade, the nightmares akin to post-traumatic stress disorder right to the present? Regardless, consider me an expert on the psychology of bullies and pack mentality.

Ask me why I hate bullying, and won't tolerate it from the type of arseholes who'd leave Matt Shepard for dead OR my Sheriff.

Anyways. That was probably too personal :).

Jim
 
Jim March writes- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hate-crime legislation is a way for society to specifically label the targeted group as "NOT to be targeted".[/quote]Sure, and when they get done, the only group not labelled as "NOT to be targeted" is white males. How is that equal protection under the law? The Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law, but liberals want to mandate equal results. They are using unconstitutional means to reach an unconstitutional end. Liberals always want to claim that their good intentions justifies the evil that they do. I don't buy it.

TB., NC
 
At present, white males aren't being selectively hunted down in the streets the way gays are.

Now granted, we sure as hell don't want to see THAT change. And we agree that better cures are available without infringing on equal protection principles.

But I'm not ready to declare every proponent of adding gays to the hate crimes protection roster a "scoundrel". Wrong, yes, but in their basic instinct to try and protect gays from street violence lies the core of a potential RKBA supporter, at least when the hate-crime proponent isn't doing it out of pure political pandering the way ClintaGore does.

To see just how bad the problem is, check this SJ Mercury Snooze article out done just after the Matt Shepard beating: http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/gaybash.html

jim
 
This may be a stupid question, but ... why hasn't anyone filed hate speech suits against Liberals who say that anyone who owns a gun should be sent to jail?

??
 
I think the hate crime legislation is only a foreshadow of future "intent" type prosecuting that will bring anti-political groups into the crosshairs. Although I find it infuriating that because of some third factor is present it automatically exalts the person possessing it to a state where they are worth more then their fellow citizens.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woodit:
This may be a stupid question, but ... why hasn't anyone filed hate speech suits against Liberals who say that anyone who owns a gun should be sent to jail?

??

[/quote]

For the most part, candidates for hate crime/speech protection are statutorily identified by category. (Under, presumably, something slightly less categorically inclusive than, "Anybody not a nondisabled Christian white male.") We don't qualify, and frankly, I don't want to be. The last thing I want is more government "protection."



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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim March:


But I'm not ready to declare every proponent of adding gays to the hate crimes protection roster a "scoundrel". Wrong, yes, but in their basic instinct to try and protect gays from street violence lies the core of a potential RKBA supporter, at least when the hate-crime proponent isn't doing it out of pure political pandering the way ClintaGore does.

jim
[/quote]

To me it's not the issue of "adding gays to the hate crimes protection"; the whole concept of hate crime protection runs afoul of the Equal Protection Clause. We may each have personal reasons for wanting to prevent bullying, but once we assert a "good" reason to encroach on equal protection, where does it stop? We're making all the similar arguments against "reasonable" gun laws; "no state shall...deny to any person...the equal protection of the laws" is every bit as absolute as "shall not be infringed."


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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
I guess my opinoins obvious since I posted the artilce's.
Oh and the second was not written by me I will assume it was the ealesup moderated as the author was not listed.
But Im with Tim and Sagewehr if someone is not punhished for committing a crime no matter what the victims sexual preferecne,or color be it white green black or just plain weird like me the fault then lies with the
justice system (injustice) for not doing their job,not the fact that the crime was lableled 'extreme' or what have you.
If it hast mentioned already I also found it amusing that those to be put in this
'protected status' are by political persuasion normally liberal democrat.
Normally that is.
But as far as the bullying again I was quite
unpopular but all the same
if you committed first degree murder against
a gay or straigh white able bodied NRA member
Id hang em high.
This way the crime is viewed the same by the next wannabe, unacceptable in our society.

------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
My experience in school was akin to that of Jim March's. However, I don't like the "more equal than others" aspect of hate crimes law.

Andrew Sullivan, the openly gay editor of New Republic, was on one of the talk shows, debating a senator from Oregon. Sullivan, to my surprise, spoke very eloquently _against_ such legislation and based his arguments on the Constitution and the principles of liberty. The distinguished member of the Senate of the United States didn't have a clue as to what the Constitution and liberty meant. Sullivan's premise was that, when you give some segment of society preferential treatment, you differentiate them from the rest of society and in the end diminish their stature and power as citizens. It was a very, very good debate.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
Let me give you a hint as to what's going on . When Dianne Slimestein was running for Mayor of San Francisco it came down to a runoff . Not only that but the fag vote was the swing ( no pun intended ) vote . She and another low life met with The Queen of The Homos to see how much they could promise in exchange for that vote . The one that gave the most would no doubt become the next Mayor of San Francisco .
To those of you that are history challanged or just don't care ......Slimestein became the next Mayor . The gay vote is becomming bigger as the social stigma is removed by legislation in exchange for something . Blacks are slowly leaving the Democrap party as some of them realize that you can really make it in this country . They must be replaced by somebody and the Democraps realize that a lever pulled by a limp wrist is just as good as anyones .

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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA
 
Didn't read any of the replies (it's busy tonight) & I really have already gone through this through my own "research" & thoughts on it all.

Coupla points:

1) "Senator Edward Kennedy's Hate Crime Amendment (which is co-sponsored by such PC luminaries as Tom Daschle, Barbara Boxer, and Dianne Feinstein) will "enhance federal enforcement of hate crimes," and if that makes you say "Whaa-?!" you're not alone. "

That's enough for me right at the gut level.
If these pukes are for it = I'm agin it - just as a matter of principle. Call it a gut reaction.

2) forget what I was gonna say & it doesn't matter at all - 'cause ...

3) "We hold these truths that all men are created equal ... "

'Nuff said! Sauce for the goose. - whatever.

There should be exactly zero, NO!, nada class held up as requiring ANY special attention/protections, etc. moreso than any other class/group/race/sex/religeon/social-economic any-damned-thing ever in this country! (/pant ;) )

The whole idea of "protecting" any "special class" is totally against anything that this country ever (once) stood) for. All should be judged on their personal behavior/actions. Period.

That that does not happen at times = that really is too bad and really is nothing more than human nature. To attempt to legislate specific behavior because of seomeone's "anything" sets us all up, in the end to class-warfare & worse.

Which, I do believe with all my heart, is "their" exact game-plan. :(

(pssst - don't buy it)
 
We agree that equal protection should be the deciding issue. Cool. So you're all in favor of gay marriage, right?

If not, then you're against them having the same equality before the law in THAT area. Right now, they're being discriminated against, by law. That being the case, the hate crime thing *almost* makes sense as a "counterbalance". But the better solution is to end all discrimination, both for and against them.

But that's politically impossible right now.

Puts it in a new light, don't it?

Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim March:
We agree that equal protection should be the deciding issue. Cool. So you're all in favor of gay marriage, right?[/quote]

Sure. I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with same sex partners getting benefits in gov't jobs. Simply legalize gay marriage. It hurts no one.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If not, then you're against them having the same equality before the law in THAT area. Right now, they're being discriminated against, by law. That being the case, the hate crime thing *almost* makes sense as a "counterbalance". But the better solution is to end all discrimination, both for and against them.[/quote]

No, don't end all discrimination. It is human nature to discriminate, and laws against it are wrong. Private businesses should have the power to decide with whom they want to do business for any reason at all. Those that choose to do business with the most folks will win in the end.
 
EricM: you said:

"No, don't end all discrimination. It is human nature to discriminate, and laws against it are wrong. Private businesses should have the power to decide with whom they want to do business for any reason at all. Those that choose to do business with the most folks will win in the end."

HELL no. You gotta be kidding.

Around 1960 give or take a year, my father worked in San Jose, Calif as a machinist, having recently come from England. This was before he met my mom. He was in a small shop, maybe 50 people total.

So one day this gal comes in, she's gonna interview with the boss for a secretarial position. And she's drop-dead gorgeous, a Polynesian lady of some sort. Ol' pop is just...oh yeah. He chats her up a bit before the interview, has a few words with her after in a gentlemanly way, he's REALLY looking forward to her being around.

The moment she's out the door, about 30 employees go see the boss, and demand that he not hire a "mud person".

He didn't. The boss didn't have the backing of the Civil Rights act Johnson signed to go tell those barbarians to fuc& off with.

Pop was FURIOUS. He had no idea what sort of scum he was working alongside, and left soon after.

Now, that was the reality back before it was illegal for private businesses to discriminate.

You want to take us back to THAT?

You're either crazy, or don't realize the implications of what you just said.

I'll be charitable and assume the latter.

Jim
 
I may be a little dense, but if you murder some one or rape some one, how is that not a "HATE" crime? Is there a "NICE" "NON-HATEFUL" way to rape and murder?

Why don't we just prosecute crime as crime?
 
I hate to enter this one. The logic for hate crime laws is to:

Add a specific deterrent to those contemplating a crime based on the motivation of ethic or racial hatred. We do this with laws about shooting cops, etc.

Differential penalties for killing folk based on motivation or behaviorial state are certainly common in modern law. Why does this one make folks crazy?

Jim is also on the money on discrimination.
My parents suffered from religious discrimination in looking for jobs.

Myself, and people I know have suffered from attempted hate crimes that had the potential to be lethal.

So if you think that is OK - well - consider the next paragraph full of unprintable epithets.

%)#($_#)$_+@($($@@$%)*%%

[This message has been edited by Glenn E. Meyer (edited July 25, 2000).]
 
The separations in law for killing someone based on intent separates accidental killings from killings resulting from angered violence but which the killer didn't know his force could reasonably turn out deadly (misdemeanor) to full-blown murder.

This "hate crimes" thing has been pushed, as with gun control, as an emotional issue. Candlelight vigils for Mathew Shephard that apparently no victim of a "love crime" (crime committed against someone not in protected group) seems to warrant.

<group> has faced centuries of discrimination in <whatever aspect of their lives> - I don't have to tell people what this is in a discussion of extended sentencing for violent criminals whose predations happen to cross ethnic lines.


To disagree with you more:

The logic for hate crimes is to federalize many crimes under the auspices of social engineering "for the greater good". It serves to reinforce ethnic/belief divisions to make people easier to rule - that small groups can be easily manipulared and played against eachother.

Divide and rule.

but what the hey, it "feels good".

Battler.
 
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