Hey, why fight at ALL?
- Thread starter Lavan
- Start date
David Park
New member
On a more serious note... 
Can anyone suggest some resources for studying non-violent conflict resolution techniques? I'm referring to handling verbal abuse or other situations where de-escalation is a better option than, say, OC spray. I'm looking for something more than basic mindset and "quickly leave the area." My sister has a master's in this stuff, but I'd rather learn something that's street-proven.
I saw the book Management of Aggressive Behavior by Roland Ouellette listed at Police Bookshelf, but I don't know if it's any good.
Can anyone suggest some resources for studying non-violent conflict resolution techniques? I'm referring to handling verbal abuse or other situations where de-escalation is a better option than, say, OC spray. I'm looking for something more than basic mindset and "quickly leave the area." My sister has a master's in this stuff, but I'd rather learn something that's street-proven.
I saw the book Management of Aggressive Behavior by Roland Ouellette listed at Police Bookshelf, but I don't know if it's any good.
striderteen
New member
Yes, de-escalation techniques are definitely a must-have (along with a CCW). You try to talk the BG out of doing whatever evil thing he's trying to do...but if it comes down to it, you have the ability to stop him.
Be nice
In my "be nicer" days, I had to take a course in verbal judo with my peace officer friends...The guy that was teaching it said that he was coming out with a book at the time called "Verbal Judo." It was a mandatory course for law enforcement folks.
I forgot what his name was...but I'm sure that's the name of the book.
Good luck.
In my "be nicer" days, I had to take a course in verbal judo with my peace officer friends...The guy that was teaching it said that he was coming out with a book at the time called "Verbal Judo." It was a mandatory course for law enforcement folks.
I forgot what his name was...but I'm sure that's the name of the book.
Good luck.
illuminatus99
New member
the "gecko attack" usually works well to fend off anyone who wants to attack you, watch how geckos fight, you throw your arms up in the air and flail them while sticking your chest out, then run bowlegged at your assailant as fast as you can, most people will not fight someone crazier than they are.
another one that works well is to tell your attacker that you're once you've knocked him out you're going to have your way with his posterior, most people won't want to fight knowing that there's any chance that sort of thing could happen.
biting works well too
another one that works well is to tell your attacker that you're once you've knocked him out you're going to have your way with his posterior, most people won't want to fight knowing that there's any chance that sort of thing could happen.
biting works well too
Rickmeister
New member
Borf: The other guy's fear of rabies will most likely get you killed on the spot.
David Blinder
New member
Do some research on "use of force continuum" or some derivation of that. The generic government model goes like this:
1) presence
2) verbal
3) OC
4) soft hands
5) hard hands
6) impact weapons
7 deadly force
Instead of a progressive escalation, I prefer to think of being in the middle of a wheel, with the spokes pointing outward (in random order) At the end of each spoke is one of the above choices. You then have a choice of going to the action that is an appropriate response. In other words, it's not necessary to go to verbal de-escalation if deadly force is needed while at the same time, using impact weapons when only OC is needed would create a problem. It should be pointed out that private citizens are "generally" only allowed to use an amount of force equal to the threat while LEO are usually allowed to use that level +1.
Bottom line is that we all need to have a variety of methods at our disposal to deal with confrontations and in reality, deadly force is the least favorable method. The old adage, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" comes to mind.
1) presence
2) verbal
3) OC
4) soft hands
5) hard hands
6) impact weapons
7 deadly force
Instead of a progressive escalation, I prefer to think of being in the middle of a wheel, with the spokes pointing outward (in random order) At the end of each spoke is one of the above choices. You then have a choice of going to the action that is an appropriate response. In other words, it's not necessary to go to verbal de-escalation if deadly force is needed while at the same time, using impact weapons when only OC is needed would create a problem. It should be pointed out that private citizens are "generally" only allowed to use an amount of force equal to the threat while LEO are usually allowed to use that level +1.
Bottom line is that we all need to have a variety of methods at our disposal to deal with confrontations and in reality, deadly force is the least favorable method. The old adage, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" comes to mind.
Quick question
Lavan,
If you haven't had this happen to you, please put yourself in my shoes or my wife's shoes (hmmm, maybe not her shoes...anyway)or other folk's position where you have had yourself being directly threatened by a person or persons' holding a gun on you with the knowledge that at any moment that person has the power to take your life or the life of your loved one and if you have already given up then you have more or less forteited your life. You're dependent on the good wishes of the BG's.
Let's say, you can accept that and they want more after you have completely complied....what if now they say they are going to rape your wife in front of you or take her away into another room so that they could do anything they want. How about if it was your daughter? How about if it was you?
Where do you draw the line?
All of those situations that I have mentioned? I personally have experienced except for the last one. I do know that my friend is still having problems with that one. (He was raped and sodomized by two of the BG's)
Another friend? He was killed after he had submitted and gave up his money. Just out of pure meanness.
There are times that I have complied and gave up the money, but I stayed ready for an attempt on me. Sometimes they walked away, other times, they made a stab at it (pun intended) They figured you had your guard down and they didn't want witnesses.
All I'm saying, Lavan, it's your life. You can try to prevent your own murder or injury or you can give it up without trying. It's your call.
Me? A long time ago, I have decided not to go quietly into the night.
Of course, if you are talking about submitting first as a tactic to get the BG to relax, then you can counterattack....that's a different subject.
Lavan,
If you haven't had this happen to you, please put yourself in my shoes or my wife's shoes (hmmm, maybe not her shoes...anyway)or other folk's position where you have had yourself being directly threatened by a person or persons' holding a gun on you with the knowledge that at any moment that person has the power to take your life or the life of your loved one and if you have already given up then you have more or less forteited your life. You're dependent on the good wishes of the BG's.
Let's say, you can accept that and they want more after you have completely complied....what if now they say they are going to rape your wife in front of you or take her away into another room so that they could do anything they want. How about if it was your daughter? How about if it was you?
Where do you draw the line?
All of those situations that I have mentioned? I personally have experienced except for the last one. I do know that my friend is still having problems with that one. (He was raped and sodomized by two of the BG's)
Another friend? He was killed after he had submitted and gave up his money. Just out of pure meanness.
There are times that I have complied and gave up the money, but I stayed ready for an attempt on me. Sometimes they walked away, other times, they made a stab at it (pun intended) They figured you had your guard down and they didn't want witnesses.
All I'm saying, Lavan, it's your life. You can try to prevent your own murder or injury or you can give it up without trying. It's your call.
Me? A long time ago, I have decided not to go quietly into the night.
Of course, if you are talking about submitting first as a tactic to get the BG to relax, then you can counterattack....that's a different subject.
The first line of defense is to be in Condition Yellow. If you have time to see an attack developing, you can formulate an appropriate response.
If, therefore you see an attack developing, or conditions for the assault are favorable, the first response should be to go somewhere else. As soon as possible.
There might, however, be times when you CAN'T run. What then?
First, channelize the approach. Loosely translated, this means to have the wall at your back. Make sure that you can't be blindsided.
Next, establish mentally your FPL. This means final protective line. In the military, this is the line your pour your defensive fire down as you prepare to get out of your position under fire.
In this instance, it means to establish the distance at which you will have your weapon at the ready, and where you have made the decision to shoot. And no, it's NOT seven yards. Even before that distance, they should be under gunpoint.
For a knife, bludgeon or other contact weapon, the distance should be at least 15 yards. For a gun, if they have it in their hand, and they are close enough for you to see that it's a gun.
Now, where does verbal judo come in?
This is where you are trying to talk your way out of a fight. But, verbal judo is really just the spoken manifestation of your presence. And, let's face it--if you are projecting the aura or demeanor of a sheep, you are much more likely to be attacked.
Remember the ounce of prevention--don't go into places where you might be involved in a fight. Don't get into piddling contests with people. If a disagreement turns into an argument, that's when you walk away.
"So, Mr. wise-guy, what if you HAVE to fight", you might ask.
1. Leave the threats for somewhere and someone else. Things you don't want to say are things like, "I'll hurt you"; "I'll kill you", "You don't wan't to screw with me", etc.
2. Make sure you achieve eye contact--steady eye contact. I have found that focusing on one pupil of the other's eye can be intimidating. But, MAKE SURE THAT THE HANDS THAT CAN KILL YOU ARE VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES.
3. Deliver your spoken in straight, emphatic tones. No, don't be a drill sergeant, and don't posture.
4. Radiate assurance and self confidence. The unspoken words and the physical presentation are what works for you here.
5. What has actually worked for me is this: "Stop. Leave me alone; I have nothing you want. Stay where you are--I'm leaving now." Then, a slow, observant retreat with their hands in sight.
6. Depending on the subject's demeanor, and number thereof, it might actually help to either:
a. Have your weapon in hand, in a pocket, or
b. Have your weapon about 1/4 free of the holster.
If you feel that you can talk your way out of a situation with a less menacing posture, that's good. Whatever works.
However, remember that it will only work if the BG gets the impression that they have backed a really big sharptoothed curly wolf into a corner, and that it would be a really good idea to NOT screw with him, but to let him go.
If, therefore you see an attack developing, or conditions for the assault are favorable, the first response should be to go somewhere else. As soon as possible.
There might, however, be times when you CAN'T run. What then?
First, channelize the approach. Loosely translated, this means to have the wall at your back. Make sure that you can't be blindsided.
Next, establish mentally your FPL. This means final protective line. In the military, this is the line your pour your defensive fire down as you prepare to get out of your position under fire.
In this instance, it means to establish the distance at which you will have your weapon at the ready, and where you have made the decision to shoot. And no, it's NOT seven yards. Even before that distance, they should be under gunpoint.
For a knife, bludgeon or other contact weapon, the distance should be at least 15 yards. For a gun, if they have it in their hand, and they are close enough for you to see that it's a gun.
Now, where does verbal judo come in?
This is where you are trying to talk your way out of a fight. But, verbal judo is really just the spoken manifestation of your presence. And, let's face it--if you are projecting the aura or demeanor of a sheep, you are much more likely to be attacked.
Remember the ounce of prevention--don't go into places where you might be involved in a fight. Don't get into piddling contests with people. If a disagreement turns into an argument, that's when you walk away.
"So, Mr. wise-guy, what if you HAVE to fight", you might ask.
1. Leave the threats for somewhere and someone else. Things you don't want to say are things like, "I'll hurt you"; "I'll kill you", "You don't wan't to screw with me", etc.
2. Make sure you achieve eye contact--steady eye contact. I have found that focusing on one pupil of the other's eye can be intimidating. But, MAKE SURE THAT THE HANDS THAT CAN KILL YOU ARE VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES.
3. Deliver your spoken in straight, emphatic tones. No, don't be a drill sergeant, and don't posture.
4. Radiate assurance and self confidence. The unspoken words and the physical presentation are what works for you here.
5. What has actually worked for me is this: "Stop. Leave me alone; I have nothing you want. Stay where you are--I'm leaving now." Then, a slow, observant retreat with their hands in sight.
6. Depending on the subject's demeanor, and number thereof, it might actually help to either:
a. Have your weapon in hand, in a pocket, or
b. Have your weapon about 1/4 free of the holster.
If you feel that you can talk your way out of a situation with a less menacing posture, that's good. Whatever works.
However, remember that it will only work if the BG gets the impression that they have backed a really big sharptoothed curly wolf into a corner, and that it would be a really good idea to NOT screw with him, but to let him go.
To look at it another way, the vast majority of situations that martial arts (or combatives, as the latest rage goes) techniques purport to address can better be addressed by running away like a bat out of hell or saying "Excuse me. I'm sorry, you are right" for most civilians.
But then again, to admit that would ruin 99% of the martial arts s businesses out there that teach "combat," "deadly," "street-effective" and a host of other superlative adjectives and nouns.
This is not to say that such training is useless - only that the vast majority of them cater to myths and warrior-prince (or -princess, of late) fantasies.
Yes there are circumstances when you can't run away or apologize your way out, but such situations are surprisingly rare if one is conscientious about controlling one's temper.
Powderman:
The vast majority of criminals are cowards who seek easy prey - they do move on to safer patches when confronted with somone who does not seem like one.
Psychologically disturbed individuals or those on mind-altering substances are another story (can't argue "logic" with those).
Skorzeny
But then again, to admit that would ruin 99% of the martial arts s businesses out there that teach "combat," "deadly," "street-effective" and a host of other superlative adjectives and nouns.
This is not to say that such training is useless - only that the vast majority of them cater to myths and warrior-prince (or -princess, of late) fantasies.
Yes there are circumstances when you can't run away or apologize your way out, but such situations are surprisingly rare if one is conscientious about controlling one's temper.
Powderman:
Some good points in your post. "I'm armed with a shotgun, and I WILL use it if you don't LEAVE NOW!" seems to elicit "Oh, ****! Take it easy, man, I'm leaving now" response more often than not.
The vast majority of criminals are cowards who seek easy prey - they do move on to safer patches when confronted with somone who does not seem like one.Psychologically disturbed individuals or those on mind-altering substances are another story (can't argue "logic" with those).
Skorzeny
Especially cowards (read: criminals/punks, etc.) who confront others while in a group.
Again, Condition Yellow applies. Use your good common sense, and--hey, believe me, this works very well--if you stay away from where the trouble is, the trouble won't find you.
Too many "schools" (using the term RATHER loosely) want to pump the idea, "Hey--learn at our school! When you learn my karate/k'ung fu/ju do/escrima/whatever system, you WILL be a studly ass kicker that need fear no man!!! All taught by our high master, a 10th dan red belt from the Orient, taught by the old masters themselves!!! Within one year!!!!! GUARANTEED, or your money back!!
Oh, yeah. Try blocking a baseball bat, sport. Or, go ahead--walk in the middle of Crip territory with your flood control pants, wingtips, and cash hanging out of your pocket. You WILL exude control, believe me.
The idea that most of them pass along is that once you are a martial arts student that you can approach any fight with confidence. The question is--why approach any fight AT ALL, if you can avoid it?
No, don't be a coward. If you can't get out of it, and you must fight, turn into a werewolf. If you MUST get physical with a group, attack the leader first. Savagely, and without quarter. Take him/her out, and the others will usually flee.
Unfortunately, the REAL combat mindset--the ability to hurt badly, even fatally if needed, and the maturity to retreat whenever possible--is something you can't buy in schools for any price.
Yes, you CAN be "macho" without fighting at the drop of a hat.
Again, Condition Yellow applies. Use your good common sense, and--hey, believe me, this works very well--if you stay away from where the trouble is, the trouble won't find you.
Too many "schools" (using the term RATHER loosely) want to pump the idea, "Hey--learn at our school! When you learn my karate/k'ung fu/ju do/escrima/whatever system, you WILL be a studly ass kicker that need fear no man!!! All taught by our high master, a 10th dan red belt from the Orient, taught by the old masters themselves!!! Within one year!!!!! GUARANTEED, or your money back!!
Oh, yeah. Try blocking a baseball bat, sport. Or, go ahead--walk in the middle of Crip territory with your flood control pants, wingtips, and cash hanging out of your pocket. You WILL exude control, believe me.
The idea that most of them pass along is that once you are a martial arts student that you can approach any fight with confidence. The question is--why approach any fight AT ALL, if you can avoid it?
No, don't be a coward. If you can't get out of it, and you must fight, turn into a werewolf. If you MUST get physical with a group, attack the leader first. Savagely, and without quarter. Take him/her out, and the others will usually flee.
Unfortunately, the REAL combat mindset--the ability to hurt badly, even fatally if needed, and the maturity to retreat whenever possible--is something you can't buy in schools for any price.
Yes, you CAN be "macho" without fighting at the drop of a hat.
pdmoderator
New member
Extreme nonviolence scenario
Friend of mine had a great story. It helps to realize that he is one of the most compulsively social people I've ever known.
He was in a NYC subway, wearing a backpack, and this guy comes up to him and says, "Give me five dollars or I'll kill you!"
The friend contemplates ditching the backpack and running for it, but realizes he needs to buy some time. So he replies, "What do you need it for?"
"I gotta get OUT of this f***ing place!"
"What's the matter?"
The mugger proceeds to describe his troubles, and the conversation goes back and forth.
Friend finally says, "Look. I've got three dollars. You take two of them and get on the bus."
"No, I don't want your money, man!"
In the end, the friend actually winds up FORCING two bucks on the mugger!
Most people could never do this sort of verbal jiujitsu, but he got away with it!
- pdmoderator
Friend of mine had a great story. It helps to realize that he is one of the most compulsively social people I've ever known.
He was in a NYC subway, wearing a backpack, and this guy comes up to him and says, "Give me five dollars or I'll kill you!"
The friend contemplates ditching the backpack and running for it, but realizes he needs to buy some time. So he replies, "What do you need it for?"
"I gotta get OUT of this f***ing place!"
"What's the matter?"
The mugger proceeds to describe his troubles, and the conversation goes back and forth.
Friend finally says, "Look. I've got three dollars. You take two of them and get on the bus."
"No, I don't want your money, man!"
In the end, the friend actually winds up FORCING two bucks on the mugger!
Most people could never do this sort of verbal jiujitsu, but he got away with it!
- pdmoderator